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U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#221

Post by alexron782 »

wozniacki wrote: post #207
sumanthvepa wrote: post #199

I guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with…

A lot of people - even some past China-appeasers - would currently disagree with that line of thinking. That was the sort of hopeful thinking that opened the worlds markets to China when Bill Clinton urged lawmakers to let China into the WTO in the year 2000.[1] Several years ago, Robert Kagan in Foreign Affairs magazine, commented that China lacks bigger humanistic aspirations than material ones and a limited vision…

Not sure why this is downvoted. I agree with this point. There is a certain level of ambition that is lacking in Confucius culture, which is a very critical drive when exploring the unknown field.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#222

Post by ThinkBackTo »

resters wrote: post #173
saltking112 wrote: post #3

One thing that I really like about the Trump administration is that finally the WH has decided to act against the systemic threat posed by China. Can someone who is well versed in politics shed some light on if this is a trump specific phenonemon or had there been a sea change and the dems are now on board too ?

Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of either party, so my view is hopefully a bit objective. Trump ran on the economic policy ideas popularized by "liberal" economist Paul Krugman. I posted a comment on HN a while back with links to Krugman's various columns, with a header above each group that included the rhetoric used by Trump to tout those policies. Krugman has been calling for trade policy changes against China for quite…

Dang, can you do something about accounts like parent who purports neutrality but is clearly a Chinese troll from a casual look at their comment history?

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#223

Post by ThinkBackTo »

umvi wrote: post #4
saltking112 wrote: post #3

One thing that I really like about the Trump administration is that finally the WH has decided to act against the systemic threat posed by China. Can someone who is well versed in politics shed some light on if this is a trump specific phenonemon or had there been a sea change and the dems are now on board too ?

I agree. Obama was way too buddy-buddy with Xi. I hope the next president is even more hardline against China than Trump.

Hardline sounds too mild. We must be open to considering extreme measures

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#224

Post by wolco »

winter_blue wrote: post #169
CharlesColeman wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why everyone glorifies basic manufacturing work like it’s the pinnacle of American labor. War requires a lot of basic manufacturing capacity, and geopolitically those aren't good things to lose.

> War requires a lot of basic manufacturing capacity A lot (if not most) of military machinery is still manufactured in the US. Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman build our planes. General Dynamics, Oshkosh, and others build our tanks. Raytheon makes some of our missiles. In fact, here's full list of who's building our defense tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_defense_... -- As you…

It's an investment in security and it's better for the evironment to build local transport less also laws are stronger around polution.

I understand someone struggling who needs to buy the no name soup made in China but your 1,000 dollar cell phone only costs 250 to make. If the price went up to 400 your phone would still be a 1,000. That's what people will pay for it. If people cannot afford more the price will stay the same or go lower until Apple can't make a profit.

The jobs and spinoff businesses and increased security better environmental conditions worldwide vs Apple adding more money into a bank account. Cellphones are a bad example.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#225

Post by ThinkBackTo »

sumanthvepa wrote: post #199

I guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with…

I don't understand why you consider yourself a neutral observer. Aren't our countries allies, politically, economically and militarily?

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#226

Post by wideasleep1 »

devoply wrote: post #218
wideasleep1 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start to falter and eventually erode away. " Are you assuming the U.S. will sit stagnant during these 15-20 years? If China is 15-20 years behind currently, I doubt they will ever be at parity. Their best…

US was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up. Heck they even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major success that was ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent... ) . These moves are there to slow it down. But China can make other moves like moving tech knowledge from one company to others and play all sorts of games. Fact is knowledge despite what American…

"US was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up."

So the mainstream media and politicians would have us believe.

"Heck they even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major success that was ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent.... ) "

All I see here is an agreement for AMD to transfer technology to China, for x86 chips destined for chinese-only server market. Further, that agreement appears stalled, since AMD will NOT transfer their Zen2 technologies in this agreement. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-zen-china-x86-ip-licen...

"And yet China's manufacturing edge is not going anywhere. They can clone any US product anyone else is producing and sell it to their trading bloc."

More like their manufacturing may not be going anywhere...their market has been shrinking by leaps and bounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#Surveillance_concerns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_over_Chinese_involvem...

They can have Iran, AFAIC.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#227

Post by ThinkBackTo »

Given the enormity of their population, one would expect they would have managed to come up with something. Honestly the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of the earth.

(Edit: since Chinese trolls have been down voting me, I will reply here to the comment below: clearly by the Chinese nation I was talking about the 1.3 billion in China. There shouldn't be any moral qualms in their case. Enlightened people and brainwashed people are not moral equals, just as humans and chickens are not)

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#228

Post by kelnos »

winter_blue wrote: post #169
CharlesColeman wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why everyone glorifies basic manufacturing work like it’s the pinnacle of American labor. War requires a lot of basic manufacturing capacity, and geopolitically those aren't good things to lose.

> War requires a lot of basic manufacturing capacity A lot (if not most) of military machinery is still manufactured in the US. Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman build our planes. General Dynamics, Oshkosh, and others build our tanks. Raytheon makes some of our missiles. In fact, here's full list of who's building our defense tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_defense_... -- As you…

In general I agree with you, but some things to note about full employment:

People who have given up and are not looking for work, but instead (for example) move back in with their parents and live a lower quality of life -- not counted in employment figures.

Also these numbers don't take into account underemployment. If you got a 30 hour a week job that pays a quarter of what your old job paid, you're still considered "employed", even though your financial situation is much worse. Ditto for if, to make ends meet, you now have to work three jobs, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Yes, those people are "employed", but might be much better off if there were mid- and low-skill manufacturing jobs that have often been the staple of the middle class and working class.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#229

Post by ETHisso2017 »

ThinkBackTo wrote: post #227

Given the enormity of their population, one would expect they would have managed to come up with something . Honestly the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of the earth. (Edit: since Chinese trolls have been down voting me, I will reply here to the comment below: clearly by the Chinese nation I was talking about the 1.3 billion in China. There should…

>the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of the earth.

Really? I find this argument hard to believe.

Also this is what I worry about. The US China conflict has a real likelihood of becoming a full on race war against Chinese people in America, thanks to sentiments like the one above.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#230

Post by mistermann »

ThinkBackTo wrote: post #227

Given the enormity of their population, one would expect they would have managed to come up with something . Honestly the world would be a far, far better place if the entire Chinese nation were to disappear off the surface of the earth. (Edit: since Chinese trolls have been down voting me, I will reply here to the comment below: clearly by the Chinese nation I was talking about the 1.3 billion in China. There should…

You may be right, or you may be wrong. Much of the world population continues to lead a terribly harsh life, who's to say Chinese dominance for sure won't finally change that? I for one don't buy the story that we've been doing our very best to raise the living standards of everyone within reason.
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