Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments • Hacker News Board

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#901

Post by haberman » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 8:58 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #893

haberman wrote: post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly what happens when people offend the groups considered "marginalized" in the USA. Here is Kevin Hart apologizing repeatedly for offending the LGBT community: https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/celebrity/kevin-hart-apo... Here is cyclist Jen Wagner-Assali apologizing for offending the trans community: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cycling-champion-apologizes-... Here are YA authors apologizing profus…

You're playing both sides here. You want to use the progressive definition of marginalized when you want something to attack, but you aren't willing to say that's what marginalized actually means. Right now, by calling China marginalized, it sounds like you agree with the definition given by those examples without staking a claim on what the word really means. I'm asking you point blank: Are these groups marginalized…

I think the progressive definition of "marginalized" is fundamentally broken. It's used as a way of a priori deciding who is the aggressor and who is the victim in any conflict or disagreement, based solely on the identities of the people involved and their historical grievances as a group.

I reject this framework. But if you accept it, I think it's hard to rebut the idea that China is oppressed, given their history over the last 200 years. I certainly believe that they feel oppressed by the west. And my observation of progressive thought is that the feeling of being oppressed combined with legitimate historical grievance is an unimpeachable claim to be a marginalized party.

In particular, progressive thought seems to say that once marginalized, a group by definition continues to be marginalized until there is "equity." But China's economy still lags far behind that of the west on a per capita basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... . So there is certainly no "equity" here.

I don't "want" to use the progressive definition of marginalized. I want to call it into question by pointing out its contradictions.

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#902

Post by tsegratis » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:04 PM UTC

theseadroid wrote: post #860

tsegratis wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Stopping HK employee taxes flow, will stop China how? This is not really their concern 2) Peaceful protest and cleaning up after themselves would make many people very happy. They did this during the umbrella and occupy central protests: however many thousands of people protesting, but the streets were spotless. They were very polite at that time; but still increasingly cannot trust the government For instance the…

I asked some questions, rather than trying to convey some arguments, since I'm not expert in any way about Hong Kong situation. The only thing led me making this post is after watching the old lady video I felt it's important to introduce some other viewpoints to the discussion happening on HN, a website I visit daily and I appreciate the HN community. Other than that I don't have any stake in the game. You might wat…

It's good to ask those things. I can only answer for myself, which is maybe not a western view point, but anyway:

I assume almost everybody thinks shining lasers on the old lady is bad. I don't think violence against civilians is ever justified. However wrong though, it is probably never fully one-sided

The last video you linked ends with a 'civilian' having molotov cocktails thrown at him, and the author of the video uses this to discredit the protests..... But... that 'civilian' has a gun in his hand. He is an undercover officer, and those events happened shortly after police shot someone with a live round in the same area

The police have not pressed charges against mafia caught on camera beating people up, but they have recently arrested a pregnant woman for wearing a facemask*

I think the protesters have been more restrained, but they still definitely make mistakes. Sadly this doesn't get us out of the spiral of violence: to do that the gov and police would have to face loosing their jobs; and maybe just as hard is they would have to accept that the protesters' anger and vitriol as true

--

Nonviolent means were employed during the earlier umbrella revolution and occupy central. These didn't seem to work. But I agree that the anger, vitriol, and violence on all sides is creating another wall...

*facemasks are quite different in HK than the west. The SARS epidemic and close living quarters means people see them as essential to health and safety -- so the facemask ban is bordering on offensive in HK culture

-- Hope that helps. Years ago I was in a warzone where the people were undefended by their government. The church was preaching forgiveness to those who attacked them, and it was impressive to see how effective it was. But it was a very big cost

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#903

Post by closetohome » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:04 PM UTC

greycol wrote: post #899

closetohome wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in many cases they are legally required to maximize profits, regardless of ethics, so long as their actions are strictly legal.

It is part of our moral duty to punish a company for ignoring public good rather than excuse it as what a company must do. That's because if a company is punished financially (say by boycott) for making immoral decisions then they must follow a more moral course to maximize their profit. Personally I don't think this is enough especially as companies become more pervasive and the confusion of subsidiaries which make…

I agree. My point is that holding companies liable to an ever-shifting window of public opinion about their actions is not as long-term a solution as addressing the parts of the system that encourage or require their behavior.

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#904

Post by Dove » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

This is a very specific instance of a much more general problem.

A lot of private companies control exclusive access to something with a value that dwarfs what you pay for it. I pay nothing for access to Twitter; if I build a business or a social life on the platform, it becomes something I would pay thousands of dollars to prevent losing. I pay nothing for access to Facebook; the memories they store at this point in my life may be nearly priceless. I've paid a low triple digit sum for Blizzard games, yet the time and social investments I have made in those games make them a couple of orders of magnitude more valuable to me, now.

The problem is that since these companies control services so valuable to me, anyone who wishes to hurt me for any reason can do it through them. Since no one is paying them to defend me -- I'm certainly not -- they have no resources commensurate with the value of what they're defending.

The situation we're in now is one in which political thugs apply pressure to private companies to hurt individuals, in an attempt to chill free speech.

Free speech is expensive and valuable, and defending it from those who would wish to destroy it requires commensurate resources. We should not expect Blizzard to stand up to the Chinese government; that is the job of the Chinese people, of other goverments, of perhaps the whole world.

To my view, Blizzard is like a store clerk who gives up the store's money to a robber. It would be nice if he was a hero, but he's not equipped for it. Nobody is paying 7-11 to stand up to violent crime. The problem is too big and expensive to ask individuals to deal with. Society paying for police and courts is at least a response on the right scale.

The mechanisms we have for protecting individual rights are antiquaited, and need to be rethought to deal with the current situation. Perhaps a model like the unified response to patent trolls could work? I think, if we want free speech to exist in the current environment, it will have to be something that big.

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#905

Post by grecy » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #817

grecy wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your comments here and below have broken the site guidelines badly. Please read and follow them: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Note this one: Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data. No one who reads these threads remotely…

Thank you for taking the time to type out such detailed and thoughtful replies here and down thread. I sincerely appreciate your input and perspective.

Obviously you have infinitely more experience and insight than I do, and you have given me a lot to think about. I had never before realized that it is in fact me who is the toxic element in this community by singling out individuals and putting them on trial. I feel bad about it (as I should) and I will never do that again.

Down thread you linked to [1], and I also appreciate your thoughtful and detailed explanation there. I agree with you that putting individuals on trial pitch-fork style is not a nice path to go down, though I can't help wonder if there isn't a "bigger picture" or anonymized way to demonstrate to the community (or just me) that the "shill" problem isn't really an issue on HN.

Like you said I seem to have jumped to the conclusion that "paid government influencers" (for want of a better term) are at work on HN, and it feels like it will be a hard assumption to shake. I'm at a point in my life where I utterly distrust any media, and I have extended that to social media. I strongly believe that virtually everything we are given from media is only one perspective, and typically it's given to us that way to benefit the entity giving the media (financial or political power).

I can only imagine how busy you are, so I feel bad adding to your stack. Would you have any interest in writing a blog post, or a "sticky" with numbers and and data that demonstrates how you know the shill problem on HN is minor? I'm thinking something along these lines [2] , though I'm sure you have way better ideas than I do.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403358

[2] https://twitter.com/AirMovingDevice/status/11811206016430735...

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#906

Post by ClumsyPilot » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

michannne wrote: post #278

IanSanders wrote: post #262

I agree 100% that we should boycott and sanction, however doubt there will be enough people who will, and enough people who care. And I don't blame most for not caring, there are more things to worry about than we have time available. Maybe 1% of hearthstone players will see your comment. Similarly, there are other entities which need to be sanctioned, which you and me won't find out about as it's outside of our area…

I'm concerned as to how you would justify such an institution

To which authority must I justify this and why are the reasons discussed here not sufficient?

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#907

Post by xwdv » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

chimi wrote: post #863

monster2control wrote: post #837

Wow, when a government can ruin someone's professional career of choice simply because he or she has an opinion that goes against the People’s Republic, that’s when companies should decide to no longer do business in China. Sadly, however, the dollar is more powerful than the the moral high ground.

This wasn't the government's decision though, was it? It was Blizzard's decision. Just makes me wonder where all of this is going. Americans left and right are choosing China's cultural decisions over America's cultural ... legacy for the lack of a better word. Over money. It's like the Americans who love America, because America made them rich, are now loving China because China is richer. I don't know which is more…

America has always been all about the money, especially when you have half the country voting for a politicians based primarily on how much free shit they’re planning to give away. Disgusting.

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#908

Post by 1000units » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

streb-lo wrote: post #432

trentnix wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to tell, that is true. And that reality is exploited to silence opposition and control others. That’s why language policing, hate speech laws, Twitter mobs, and bully-the-bully efforts are abominations. So really, the answer is easy: everyone has the right to offend, and has no right not to be offended. Your simple rule doesn’t go far enough.

Hate-speech laws exist because people are programmable. Try and tell me your opinions are your own and the books and media you consume do not own some portion of them. Hate-speech laws exist to prevent the programming of people to systematically hate and exterminate other people, a lesson that has been learned many times over in history.

Hate-speech laws are ridiculous. They only have their cheerleaders because some people hate Nazis more than they love what Nazis threatened to destroy. Never made sense to me.

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#909

Post by mikelyons » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #907

chimi wrote: post #863

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't the government's decision though, was it? It was Blizzard's decision. Just makes me wonder where all of this is going. Americans left and right are choosing China's cultural decisions over America's cultural ... legacy for the lack of a better word. Over money. It's like the Americans who love America, because America made them rich, are now loving China because China is richer. I don't know which is more…

America has always been all about the money, especially when you have half the country voting for a politicians based primarily on how much free shit they’re planning to give away. Disgusting.

This type of overly-simplistic thinking is devilry. Done for the sake or rhetoric rather than actual original thought of the individual. It's done by people who are run by selfishness and the illusion of being separate from others.

Re: Blizzard Suspends Professional Hearthstone Player for Hong Kong Comments

#910

Post by 1000units » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

streb-lo wrote: post #689

josteink wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hate-speech laws exist because people are programmable. And some people would like to have us programmed with their opinion unchallenged, rather than have their view face opposing arguments in a fair and open debate. Once you compromise on free speech for some views, it’s all a slippery down-hill slope from there.

Once you allow someone to advertise murder as a solution to a problem it's all down-hill from there.

And yet you personally contribute funds to your nation's military, I presume.