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Natural Magick (1584)

faculty.umb.edu

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#21
post #2

What is a good definition of magic? Does magic necessarily NOT exist by definition, or do many/most/all forms of it not exist due to empirical results? Does magic that works become science?

Starting with the premise that our mind doesn't actually perceive reality directly, but rather creates an internal representation based on external sensory inputs, I would say that the definition of magic is "the intentional manipulation of another person's internal representation of reality." Which should cover a lot of what most people consider to be magic tricks.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math is an invented tool. It controls nothing.

If math is invented, then why are some answers right and some answers wrong?

Same reason that while DnD is an invented game, some actions are allowed while others are not. To be coherent, a system (invented or not) must remain consistent within itself.

In math, a wrong answer isn't so much "wrong" as it is inconsistent with established mathematical properties/rules.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#23
post #2

What is a good definition of magic? Does magic necessarily NOT exist by definition, or do many/most/all forms of it not exist due to empirical results? Does magic that works become science?

Magic, science, religion and philosophy are three dimensions of this issue. Magic and science are the practical dimensions, while religion and philosophy are the theoretical dimensions.

There is overlap, so religion has it's practical side, but here I realy mean theology.

In the early eras magic and science were essentially indistinguishable, because people had limited intellectual tools to determine what really worked and what didn't. As those tools became more codified and more reliable, science started to distinguish itself. So for example modern chemistry extricated itself from alchemy.

Nowadays we look at these questions in hindsight using the lens of modern rationalism and scientific methods, so we can distinguish between activities that were effective and reliable from those based on fanciful ideas and 'magical' thinking.

A lot of historical magic was based on a religious view of the world. So there were spells for summoning demons that could help you find treasure, or protect you from evil influences, or make someone fall in love with you. These evolved from religious practices, but then again what is a marriage ceremony or blessing if not a magical spell? They are attempts to invoke esoteric powers to make a change in the world.

Other forms of magic evolved from natural philosophy. This includes a lot of early medicine that tried to manipulate the balance of the humours in the body, or magic that invoked elemental powers or principles. The modern equivalent is crystal healing and such.

So one way to look at it is that magic is stuff based on theological or folkloric ideas, or (to not put too fine a point on it) false philosophy. That's a very modern way to slice things though. Modern occultists have also invented new and interesting ways to redefine magic, Crowley for example. And yes, I'd put him in the modern category.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#24
post #2

What is a good definition of magic? Does magic necessarily NOT exist by definition, or do many/most/all forms of it not exist due to empirical results? Does magic that works become science?

Starting with the premise that our mind doesn't actually perceive reality directly, but rather creates an internal representation based on external sensory inputs, I would say that the definition of magic is "the intentional manipulation of another person's internal representation of reality." Which should cover a lot of what most people consider to be magic tricks.

"Tricks are what a whore does for money." Why make it manipulation of another person? It could include the self as in the case of invocation. Or you could go the Crowley route and say Magick is causing change in accordance with will...

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#25
post #2

What is a good definition of magic? Does magic necessarily NOT exist by definition, or do many/most/all forms of it not exist due to empirical results? Does magic that works become science?

My personal definition of magic is an effect that cannot be repeated- say, something like cold fusion. Perhaps you performed a magickal act once and it had an effect - but the same effect will never repeat itself no matter how often you repeat the exact same magickal act. But, maybe you can find another Act that will have the same Effect.

... or in nay case that was a definition of magic that I was planning on basing an entire (homebrew) RPG supplement on :)

My definition of science, on the other hand is absolutely "magic that works". Modern science is achieving everything that ancient cultures tried to do with magic. Except, we found the way to understand how the world works and how to do all those things for real- the scientific method. Which doesn't always work of course- but if anything does, that's science.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math is an invented tool. It controls nothing.

If math is invented, then why are some answers right and some answers wrong?

Languages are "invented" too, but we can still use them to approximately describe reality.

Things are true in math if we can follow the rules to derive the truth from axioms. That knowledge may then describe or predict something which should hold true in reality, which is tested via experiments.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#27

This stuff is absolutely fascinating as it gives an insight into a worldview that we (well, many in the west) have lost, and not so long ago either. I wish I had time to read this lot.

It helps with the worldview, but it doesn't give us context as to how it's contemporaries interpreted it - was this a popular book that was accepted and acknowledged, or was it a fringe effort that remains?

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#28
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If math is invented, then why are some answers right and some answers wrong?

Same reason that while DnD is an invented game, some actions are allowed while others are not. To be coherent, a system (invented or not) must remain consistent within itself. In math, a wrong answer isn't so much "wrong" as it is inconsistent with established mathematical properties/rules.

So it sounds like some aspects are not invented.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#29
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason that while DnD is an invented game, some actions are allowed while others are not. To be coherent, a system (invented or not) must remain consistent within itself. In math, a wrong answer isn't so much "wrong" as it is inconsistent with established mathematical properties/rules.

So it sounds like some aspects are not invented.

As a knowledge structure (axioms and theorems), math is absolutely invented.

The fact that it often corresponds to our experience of reality is a consequence of thousands of years of refinement with the goal of making it describe reality as closely as possible while remaining internally consistent.

But that doesn't make it any less invented... just a very helpful tool for modeling reality.

Re: Natural Magick (1584)

#30
post #8

It's slightly shocking to read this and realize how many outright falsehoods these people were being told. It's almost wonderful that knowledge advanced when people were being taught stuff like this by authorities ancient and modern: > Diodorus says, that near to the city Thebais in Egypt, when Nilus overflowing is past, the Sun heating the wet ground, the chaps of the earth send forth great store of Mice in many pla…

I ended up reading the lodestone section and realizing that it was a description of magnets.

Which section is that?
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