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'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

theguardian.com

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Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#231

Post by decebalus1 »

mwyah wrote: post #16
wjoe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The USA as the only nation in the world with true free speech protections" Is this accurate? Legally, I understand that free speech is protected in the US constitution. I'm sure it's not the only country in the world with free speech laws, but I don't know how the specifics compare. Culturally, the US seems less tolerant of free speech than plenty of other places in the world. Obviously China is orders of magnitude…

Go to Europe and say the holocaust didn't happen, see what occurs. In fact many countries in Europe have blasphemy laws and they uphold them: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

There's a nice little compilation [1] about free speech exceptions in the United States. It may be very helpful for climbing down high horses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#232

Post by threwawasy1228 »

jdm2212 wrote: post #216
jimclegg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks similar to what happens in the UK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF_rvhsGjBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Xr4nfKsWk Wonder what she typed.

One is a country with rule of law enforcing its laws. The other is an autocracy enforcing the whims of the current ruler.

This is such a ridiculous framing, so in your opinion by this logic, if Xi was democratically elected by a free and fair election, and then proceeded to ban memes via a legislative branch that would be perfectly fine? I think what the UK is doing is equally shameful. This kind of "its ok when the west does it" type of narrative is why when I talk to Chinese students about censorship issues they can consistently point to Western censorship of topics with smugness.

"Oh but those things we ban here are anti-PC, so we are offended by them", sounds eerily similar to, "Oh but those things we ban here are anti-CCP, so we are offended by them".

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#233

Post by andrepd »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #217
azangru wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling our rights "privilege" is throwing out the struggle and sacrifice of everyone that fought for those rights. But isn't it the very definition of privilege, when through no effort of your own you get to enjoy the benefits for which others have "fought", "struggled", and "sacrificed"? How is it different from the privilege of being born into a rich (or just functional) family? > You may have been Lucky to have…

If I google privilege definition google tells me 'a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group. "education is a right, not a privilege"' Obviously whoever wrote that should be penalized because they mucked it up with their example, if privilege is a special right then how is education a right not a privilege? But anyway, a privilege is something that is understood…

>Thus by the American conception of things every human has the right to free speech, that China takes that away from it's citizens thus not make American's privileged - it makes China bad and its citizens oppressed for having their rights removed.

A priori, in a natural state, there is no "right of free speech". It was fought for, built, implemented, and maintained. We are privileged if we are born in a country with solid institutions which grant you this right. That's all there is to the initial comment, I don't see why such a fuss.

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#234

Post by SomeOldThrow »

throwaway_bad wrote: post #47
dekhn wrote: post #39

I have to say, this is really the only way to respond to China when it comes to their no-humor censors: just come out and mock them. They don't really have any way to reply. One wonders if there is an entire revolutionary class within China sharing South Park videos for freedom.

Sometimes we forget that getting disappeared in china is not just a meme. Police will show up to arrest you just for posting comments online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOAbkTs_a4

This is true of all countries. Try posting threats about federal employees and you will also get arrested.

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#235

Post by andrepd »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #222
delecti wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to afford a Lexus is a privilege, but it is not an example of capital-P "Privilege" [1]. Not every lower-case p privilege (perk) is an example of capital-P Privilege. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege

The point is the opposite -- not every right is a privilege. Some are inalienable and their denial is a human rights violation rather than merely an instance of economic disparity.

That a right is "inalienable" is a construction such as any other right or privilege. A social construction enforced by solid institutions. You only have the "right to life" (however inalienable you think it to be) because there is a whole system of laws, courts, government, law enforcement, that grants you that right in practice.

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#236

Post by jdm2212 »

threwawasy1228 wrote: post #232
jdm2212 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is a country with rule of law enforcing its laws. The other is an autocracy enforcing the whims of the current ruler.

This is such a ridiculous framing, so in your opinion by this logic, if Xi was democratically elected by a free and fair election, and then proceeded to ban memes via a legislative branch that would be perfectly fine? I think what the UK is doing is equally shameful. This kind of "its ok when the west does it" type of narrative is why when I talk to Chinese students about censorship issues they can consistently point…

There are two separate issues with China banning memes:

1. it's symptomatic of Xi's government being able to do anything it wants to (including killing people to harvest their organs) without any checks and balances

2. it violates our ideal of freedom of speech

One of those is a far more serious problem than the other. A democratic society can fix laws that don't live up to its ideals. A lawless, autocratic society cannot.

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#237

Post by goatlover »

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #234
throwaway_bad wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes we forget that getting disappeared in china is not just a meme. Police will show up to arrest you just for posting comments online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOAbkTs_a4

This is true of all countries. Try posting threats about federal employees and you will also get arrested.

Threatening someone's life is a bit different from a cartoon, and it should get anyone arrested in any country, with some consideration of context, of course.

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#238

Post by ip26 »

onemoresoop wrote: post #227
nilkn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not about morals at all. It's about money. China is the world's most populous country, and a surprising number of American industries are fairly dependent on revenue from Chinese customers. This effectively gives China indirect control over multiple major US corporations. Until recently, this has been hidden behind the scenes exceptionally well, but the curtains are being pulled aside as China is becoming…

Why don't they create a version specific to China and censor it all they want? Why do we all have to be bundled in that censorship? Only because it is easier marketing and the are saving on logistics?

If western companies happily comply with their censorship demands, why would they bother?

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#239

Post by SomeOldThrow »

jdm2212 wrote: post #216
jimclegg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks similar to what happens in the UK - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF_rvhsGjBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Xr4nfKsWk Wonder what she typed.

One is a country with rule of law enforcing its laws. The other is an autocracy enforcing the whims of the current ruler.

Rule of law is used by all states regardless of quality. What makes China autocratic but, say, national security letters non-autocratic?

Re: 'We good now China?' South Park creators issue mock apology

#240

Post by corodra »

ddrdrck_ wrote: post #203
corodra wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Do you really believe that all the people actually incarcerated in these "re-education camps" will actually be killed directly or indirectly (forced labour, starvation) ? If it is the case then I agree it would be comparable to holocaust or other genocides. But it is not what is happening at the moment, and I am convinced it won't happen (there has been no mass murdering in Tibet afaik)

Yes if given the chance. Economically it's actually difficult to do so, as the Germans and Soviets learned. If you don't have to hide, it makes it even easier. And denial rhetoric, which has never changed, helps them greatly in achieving that goal.

"Well, we don't have evidence that these camps involve killings. So, we're not going to investigate it. We're going to do business as usual."

As a Polish-American, here's a fun one. Look up Jan Karski. The dude that personally witnessed the extermination camp atrocities, escaped and reported to Western Allies in WW2. Even met with FDR. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter who heard the reports, "I did not say that he was lying, I said that I could not believe him. There is a difference."

Saying you don't believe someone is the same as thinking they're lying. "I believe you, I just don't think you're telling the truth." Doesn't make sense. "I don't believe you, but I think you're telling the truth". Doesn't make sense either.

But this is why I get fired up to all Hell about this stuff. You don't want to believe it. Look up BBC reports of interviews with people who got out of these camps in China. I mean, if there's organ harvesting, I highly doubt they're waiting for a natural death. That's all we know right now. It's supremely hard to believe it can stop there.

History never, ever changes. It's just different names, different faces and different blood spilled. But it's always the same stories and the same lies.

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