Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#691

Post by surajama » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

thesausageking wrote: post #256

The anger towards Apple in this thread is misdirected. The US government's official stance recognizes "that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China" and that "the United States does not support Taiwan independence" From: https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-taiwan/ Why should Apple be expected to take a political stance at odds with the official Chinese and US government policies?

The US's relationship with Taiwan is much more nuanced than that. Taiwan-US relations are actually at the closest they've ever been. For example:

1. US sells $8B of fighter jets to Taiwan (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/approves-8bn-sale-66-...)

2. US passes the TAIPEI act, which outlines the US's strategy in dissuading Taiwan's few remaining diplomatic allies from switching recognition to China. (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/340...)

3. Visa free travel in the US for Taiwanese citizens (https://www.export.gov/article?id=Taiwan-Visa-Requirements)

The US might officially not recognize Taiwan as a country, but would it sell $8B of military equipment to a country it truly believed to be China?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#692

Post by qwerty456127 » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

howtofly wrote: post #685

qwerty456127 wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Theoretically, a government should represent its people, which should be the foundation of democracy. If that foundation were broken Well, in many countries it absolutely is. And there is no way to fix this. And even if a government was really elected legitimately and chosen not to recognize Taiwan I doubt this meant the people didn't know Taiwan is a de-facto independent country and actively wanted to keep it unre…

> Well, in many countries it absolutely is. And there is no way to fix this. That a legal government of a modern democratic country cannot represent its people is a horrendous claim. As a strong believer of democracy, I'd rather assume that you were the minority in this case. The everyone claim may hold true for everyone you know (among the minority of your country of course).

There are countries with high corruption rates where elections are well-known to be manipulated in a number of illegal ways, e.g. by tossing in huge numbers of fake votes and by blocking opposition from participating in elections for fake reasons. And even if the elections were held correctly, an elected government which ignores its duty to protect minorities is not democratic.

As a strong believer of democracy are you naive enough to believe all the elections are perfectly fair, no party at power ever cheats to imitate democracy and that democracy is about everybody sacrificing themselves to obey "the majority"? Do you believe the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is actually democratic? Do you believe the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia is liberal?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#693

Post by NilsIRL » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

7u5432throw wrote: post #110

NilsIRL wrote: post #105

Apple is basically saying that Hong Kong is ≈ to China which is Chinese propaganda.

Isn’t that also the stance of the UN? Hong Kong and Macau are special administrative regions of China until 2047.

What I meant was more equal than before.

Basically Apple is treating both places in the same way with the same restrictions whereas before nothing special applied to HK.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#694

Post by dang » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

yungcoder wrote: post #683

dang wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You Godwinned up a huge flamewar with this. That's seriously not cool—political and nationalistic flamewar with Nazi overtones is a failure here. We'd appreciate it if you'd please read the site guidelines and take this one to heart: " Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. " https://news.ycombinator.com/new…

So stating an opinion with valid comparisons is simply just flaming now, eh? Good to know the concept of "genuinely new" is up to you and you alone to decide.

It's just that it's my job to make these calls. In doing so, I look at the effects a comment has. In this case we got a dismal flamewar.

It looks like you've been creating accounts for the purpose of nationalistic/political battle. That's against the site guidelines, and we ban accounts that do it, regardless of which side you're for or against. A lot of the time, we don't even look at which side an account is for or against—it isn't necessary, and we don't care.

Creating accounts to break the site guidelines with well eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#695

Post by CharlesColeman » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #558

CharlesColeman wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hiding an emoji is tiny, turning over all of someone’s files is much more intrusive, killing someone would be far worse again. I think you need to distinguish between actions against society and actions against an individual. Censorship is almost always an action against society; turning over files is sometimes against society but often just against an individual.

That’s a clearly false distinction. If Apple turns over the files of one individual to the government, then whole society is vulnerable to that, and this is incomparably more oppressive than removing a one of the UI buttons that displays a particular flag.

The thing you're not getting is that removing an emoji at government direction for political reasons leaves the whole of society open to other things getting removed for similar reasons: such as books, movies, news reports, etc. That's nearly always oppressive.

Turning over files to the government can be a normal law enforcement thing, and many societies have figured out how to do that and preserve civil liberties. It can be non oppressive.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#696

Post by oconnor663 » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

yellowarchangel wrote: post #90

oconnor663 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that the war of 1812 had resulted a complete British/Canadian conquest of the US, which lasted for the most of the 19th century. Then imagine that Florida had successfully seceded from the US after WWII and joined the Soviet Union, along with all of Canada. Then finally imagine that the Soviet Union won the Cold War and has been the sole world superpower for the last thirty years. How would we feel, in that w…

I don't think censoring facts is ever anything but black and white. The fact that Taiwan exists, Hong Kong exists, Falun Gong, Tibet... These are all real things. There shouldn't ever be a reason to hide the fact that they exist no matter if todays reality wasn't todays reality.

I mean, yes, I'm an American and it's no surprise to anyone that I think censoring speech is deeply problematic. (I think telling people how much money they're allowed to spend on political ads is also problematic, though most Americans seems to be cool with that restriction. It's really hard to draw black and white lines when you get into the details.)

But when I see other people (in China, in Europe, really in most places that aren't the US) supporting tighter speech restrictions than we do, I understand that that's for some reason other than them being assholes, or childish, or hypersensitive, or whatever. I probably wouldn't like their reasons if I fully understood them, but I also accept that being an American means I don't fully understand them.

[As a side note not directed at you but at some others in this thread, it sounds like trying to draw this distinction gets me labeled as some kind of communist shill. What the fuck ever.]

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#697

Post by mistermann » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

gleenn wrote: post #594

mistermann wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think it also has non-trivial psychological effects on the Chinese public in terms of feelings of national pride, optimism for the future, and allegiance to their communist government. From where I sit, China is executing largely flawlessly, for the maximization of their outcome that is, not the entire world's. But it's the West who made this possible, so I don't place much blame on China.

Pretty sure the escalating violence in Hong Kong would be a sign that things aren't going flawlessly.

Flawless execution does not necessarily mean everything goes perfect. Expecting everyone to go down without a fight (or even realizing they're in one in the first place) like the West seems like fairly wishful thinking.

I reckon Hong Kong is a speed bump. China could likely roll tanks in and slaughter thousands and the West would do little more than hold some important looking meetings and press conferences with Very Serious looks on their faces, before issuing some "demands" on China's behavior, that would be promptly forgotten. Western culture has become weak, we are ruled by false ideology, propaganda, and the almighty dollar. If you ask me, we deserve whatever it is we get.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#698

Post by dpkonofa » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

marnett wrote: post #434

dpkonofa wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course but I think the point is that we can stop supporting the continued benefit of these. Money talks and both people and corporations can talk the talk by not supporting these countries and not caving to them.

I do not support the atrocities that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is committing against the people of Yemen (civilian death toll closing in on 100,000 [0]) with American purchased F-35 jets manufactured by Lockheed Martin. How can I, as a person, talk with my money to prevent this? How can Lockheed Martin, a corporation whose fiduciary obligation is to generate profit for its shareholders, prevent this? How can the US…

That's a huge straw man and not at all what I was referring to.

Stop buying goods that support these policies. Stop supporting politicians that support these policies. Stop patronizing companies that lobby for these things. Use apps like "Goods Unite Us" to find out where your money is going.

The only way to do anything as an individual is to vote with your wallet, your feet, and your actual vote. When that cumulative change affects the bottom line of these companies, they'll have no choice but to change.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#699

Post by dpkonofa » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 6:45 PM UTC

ako wrote: post #267

dpkonofa wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". This would have to be done on a federal level. Just because Apple stopped doing this doesn't mean China would be any worse off. Google, Amazon, and every other tech company would still get in line to do whatever it takes to get that sweet, sweet money.

Where is apple going for production of its hardware if not to china? What other country has the knowledge, capacity, experience, time-to-market, factories and workers available to build all the iphones, iwatches, imac, ipads and macbooks?

That's the entire point. Even if Apple was going to be able to go somewhere else (India, US, etc.), it wouldn't hurt China much if every other tech company maintains course and/or doubles down on China. Unless China is hurt economically by their actions, nothing will change.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#700

Post by qwerty456127 » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #526

alasdair_ wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I mean, you can take a plane to Taipei. It isn't subjective or unprovable: the ROC will check your passport. They issue the currency you will use to buy food. The police work for them. Taxes are collected, exclusively, by them. The question of whether or not ISIS is therefore a country is left as an exercise for the reader.

I assume they were, but since most of the world was intent on squashing the country flat as a bug I doubt formal recognition would have done anything for them.

Why wouldn't everybody recognize it as a country and declare it a war?