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Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

latimes.com

71–80 of 145 posts

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#71
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It rusts cars for one. It could make the soil too salty for growing if runoff accumulates in one place, but usually it will be diluted too much to matter. I don't know if chemicals other than salt are used commonly on roads, that could cause other issues.

Northern Maine is too poor to afford significant amounts of road salt, so they supplement heavily with plain dirt and sand.

That's often added for traction. We do that widely in Canada, even when salt is not used.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#72

This kind of reminds of when we dump tons of salt on the roads when winter storms come around the east coast. It solves one problem but what other problems is it causing? It would be incredibly naive to think dumping all these chemicals on the ground wouldn't cause some type of negative externality.

You are confusing different classes of chemical contaminants. Rock salt which is spread on roads consists of a chemical subset of seasalt - which is completely safe to humans as evidenced by healthy coastal communities.

The contaminants discussed here are of an entirely different class, they are toxic at trace levels. Sea salt and rock salt are ubiquitous natural materials, if they were toxic at low levels plagues of disease would occur until animals evolved resistance to them.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#73
Contamination concerns surrounding Air Force and other military sites span far beyond PFAS as well. Disused military sites fall under the purview of the Defense Environmental Recovery Program/Formerly Used Defense Sites (DERP FUDS, what an acronym) administered by the Corps of Engineers, which has a long list of sites (hundreds per state generally) and is not very transparent about the disposition of these sites, with the records usually being shipped to the district ACE headquarters from which they can be difficult to retrieve. The sheer number of sites is also a challenge to effective public oversight.

Active sites generally fall under the purview of an environmental permitting program, so there are dual problems that the level of rigor to which the operation is held varies by the permitting authority (state environment department or EPA depending) and that the military branches in general and it seems Air Force in particular have drug their feet and, in general, gotten away with the least effort possible to satisfy their permit obligations (which are virtually always negotiable with the permitting authority, a negotiating process in which the Air Force holds a large portion of the power).

Other common groundwater contamination concerns around Air Force installations include jet fuel (often leaked from underground tanks and piping and may have gone undetected for decades) and residues of high explosives resulting from munitions testing and disposal. Smaller groundwater plumes may result from photographic processing chemicals and solvents used in cleaning aircraft parts. Generally all of these will be grouped into one or more "operable units" or OUs for administrative purposes and a series of reports issued as the contamination is characterized and a remediation program is designed and implemented. Depending on the regulating agency, these reports may be more or less difficult to find. For DERP FUDS it usually requires a FOIA to the correct USACE HQ wih a lot of followup as they frankly don't seem to have their records in order internally and take a while to find them - the FOIA officers are generally helpful but will keep coming back to you needing more info/clarification as they try to track down the right OU and reports. Fortunately I have never had them ask for a fee, even when their "secure file transfer" solution was broken for months and they had to mail me burned CDs.

Permitting processes and the DERP program both require public information meetings and a (modest) public outreach program. If you live near a military site, pay attention to notices in the newspapers and posted around the community for these meetings, and contact the public information office of the relevant military branch to inquire. The public meetings often include a surprising amount of technical detail on the concern and remediation plans, and because they are also attended by permitting officials represent an opportunity to put some city council meeting-style public pressure on the process.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#74

I grew up approximately 2.5 miles from a major rocket manufacturer. We're talking R&D and manufacturing of jet propulsion and rocket systems since the 80s. They totally polluted the water tables in the area with by-products of rocket fuel and other industrial chemicals used to clean engines. They were fined in the 90s and supposedly worked with local water authorities to setup a filtration system... but decades later…

I'd like to hear more about your neighbors experiencing autoimmune disorders. My wife is going through something similar. She has been the picture of health until this past year when she suddenly started exhibiting many symptoms that point to thyroid disorder, yet her endocrinologist says there is nothing wrong with her thyroid. She grew up in Southern California, so if the women in your community are finding success in treating their disorders, I would like my wife's doctors to take a look in this direction. Thanks.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#76

I grew up approximately 2.5 miles from a major rocket manufacturer. We're talking R&D and manufacturing of jet propulsion and rocket systems since the 80s. They totally polluted the water tables in the area with by-products of rocket fuel and other industrial chemicals used to clean engines. They were fined in the 90s and supposedly worked with local water authorities to setup a filtration system... but decades later…

Are you talking about the Santa Susana Labs that was used by Rocketdyne for a period of time? Or is there another area with a similarly screwed up story? I live in the area (about 5 miles south of the former lab) and didn't hear anything about it until I moved here. Since then I've read stories about how people living in Simi Valley used to be able to watch some of their rocket tests. Those labs are also the site of…

Bethpage NY has issues with the groundwater near the old Grumman facility.

I would venture to bet there are probably dozens of such sites across the country.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#77
post #25

Filter your water if you live anywhere near an airport or military base anywhere, it's not just California. In Satellite Beach, Florida, the contamination from Patrick AFB was discovered after a group of Satellite Beach High alumni realized they all developed cancer around the same time and decided to start digging. [ https://pfasproject.com/2018/08/08/satellite-beach-florida-f... ] They dumped everything in a trench…

> not realizing there was an underground waterflow there I'm amazed whenever I see this. (A) what makes it okay to just dump stuff in a ditch? (B) are these people really clueless that no leaching through soil occurs?

"Earth Day" was an event that happened only every decade up until 1990 when it became an annual event. This concept that what we do has a direct impact on the environment has only been a mainstream idea since the mid-1990s. Outside of super liberal areas like California, things didn't really kick off until Al Gore's movie An Inconvenient Truth came out in 2006. By the standards of the day, just digging the ditch and covering it afterwards was considered forward-thinking in most rural locales.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#78

I grew up approximately 2.5 miles from a major rocket manufacturer. We're talking R&D and manufacturing of jet propulsion and rocket systems since the 80s. They totally polluted the water tables in the area with by-products of rocket fuel and other industrial chemicals used to clean engines. They were fined in the 90s and supposedly worked with local water authorities to setup a filtration system... but decades later…

Are you talking about the Santa Susana Labs that was used by Rocketdyne for a period of time? Or is there another area with a similarly screwed up story? I live in the area (about 5 miles south of the former lab) and didn't hear anything about it until I moved here. Since then I've read stories about how people living in Simi Valley used to be able to watch some of their rocket tests. Those labs are also the site of…

It’s remarkable how irresponsible people will be if they’re allowed.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can't test for PFAS with consumer kit, it's dangerous at 70 parts-per-trillion levels and is tricky to handle without contamination. The test itself is expensive, too. I'm in the part of Rockford, Michigan contaminated by Wolverine/Hush Puppies/Caterpillar shoe leather tannery scraps, and they've paid Rose & Westra GZA to send techs to my house every 6 months. A friend just outside the supposedly affected are…

Those sound like big filters. Where are they installed, and how often do you replace? Or is that just pitcher volume?

Typically the filter is a tube with connectors on end. Most soda fountain machines have a pair of inline 36" x 6" filter for activated charcoal and water softeners mounted on the wall somewhere.

Re: Firefighting foam leaves toxic legacy in Californians’ drinking water

#80

This kind of reminds of when we dump tons of salt on the roads when winter storms come around the east coast. It solves one problem but what other problems is it causing? It would be incredibly naive to think dumping all these chemicals on the ground wouldn't cause some type of negative externality.

The excess salt can disrupt soil ecosystems, but salt is not poisonous or carcinogenic. It's just a matter of having to much in the soil/water, which isn't permanent.
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