591–600 of 730 posts
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Are there gas chambers in those camps? What on earth does it change whether there's gas chambers in there? If you're trying to claim they're not 1940s nazi germany, just say they don't speak german and be done with it. If you're aware of what's happening over there then you are aware of the torture, yes?
sorry, on mobile and could have phrased that better. Does the outright extermination of the Uyghurs appear to be the PRC's ultimate goal?
Between this and the NBA's capitulation to making the Rockets' GM retract his statements on Hong Kong, at what point does appeasement just become acceptance of China's behavior? Sure, from the individual business' perspective they don't want to risk alienating the Chinese government and losing the Chinese market, but if China sees that they can get their way by simply threatening foreign companies then it will just e…
It's a really difficult problem. The world can be rightfully indignant at America's post-war history of barely paying attention to the mess it makes. From the inside, foreign policy has all this classist baggage that makes it really had to touch from the left.
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China is showing the ability to control one of the world's largest, and most advanced companies. It isn't petty–it is scary. The U.S. and others have sold their soul to the devil for $299 flat screen tvs.
I would think it also has non-trivial psychological effects on the Chinese public in terms of feelings of national pride, optimism for the future, and allegiance to their communist government. From where I sit, China is executing largely flawlessly, for the maximization of their outcome that is, not the entire world's. But it's the West who made this possible, so I don't place much blame on China.
Between this and the NBA's capitulation to making the Rockets' GM retract his statements on Hong Kong, at what point does appeasement just become acceptance of China's behavior? Sure, from the individual business' perspective they don't want to risk alienating the Chinese government and losing the Chinese market, but if China sees that they can get their way by simply threatening foreign companies then it will just e…
I can totally imagine the world which China could control the west through exerting pressure on these giant companies.
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Agreed I think it’s a little over blown to compare. That said, the social credit system is oddly reminiscent as well.
Is it really overblown? Think about it. It's not like Nazi germany only had followers because they were being mind-controlled. They were slow-boiling the frog back then as well and those who didn't want to notice could easily justify everything. Well, sure, nazi germany ran concentration camps, keeping hundreds of thousands prisoner based on ethnicity and religion. It's not like China is doing that after all… … right…
The problem is people in the west can only "think about it" in western lens which leads to readily accessible Godwin's Law. Chinese mental schema is not preoccupied with Hitler, most Chinese aren't familiar with Nazi death camps and the ones that are, don't attribute any particular significance to them because China is a 5000 year old country with a long legacy of extermination but also integration (i.e. manchu, mongol rulers got subsumed into broader Chinese culture).
Anyway, these are "vocational training camps" because ostensibly that's their goal - forced integration into society not elimination. Yes many people died under disastrous CPC policies, but in terms of genocide and extermination, the victims of CPC purges are constrained and not ethnically targeted. Compared to say FaLunGong pratitionres. CPC isn't aiming to eliminate and entire Chinese minority, 1 one of 55 officially recognized by the constitution, if only because they have to change the constitution to 54 after to reflect it and that would look bad for Xi domestically.
To contextualize what's happening in Xinjiang, it's useful to think of US melting pot analogy combined with brutal indigenous residential schools that are conceptually based around integration. Because that is literally the inspiration behind it. Yes, awkward golf clap for US inspiring Nazi and Chinese concentration camps.
Here's a brief write up of the politics behind the scene:
China is unofficially moving towards a 2nd generation MingZu (minority/ethnic) policy. The original ethnic policy was based around Soviet oblasts, autonomous regions with extra freedoms, i.e. tax break, family planning exceptions, affirmative action. These perks designed to ingratiate ethnic minorities to Chinese rule have not maintained serenity, post 2009 violent uprisings in Tibet and XinJiang which has led some thinkers to believe that ethnic autonomy and local identity has backfired. One of the extreme but prominent thinker was important at United Work. Forgot whom. Supposedly Xi pushed back on the idea initially. But the ground campaign happening now speaks for itself despite no official policy shift or changes in article 4 of the constitution (minority rights).
The new MingZu policy emphasized national unity, instead of local identity. The new focus is on GuoZu (State race), abandon individual identity to one national identity. HanYu (Han language) / PuTongHua (common language) has been renamed to GuoYu (national language) in official documentation. In response to Uyghur intellectuals / upper class teaching Uyghur languages to their kids, promotion of ethnic languages has (supposedly) been internally elevated to great evil status after extremist, separatism, terrorism. Increasing Han migration to autonomous regions to promote ethnic mingling. New restrictions on religion that will likely touch all religions.
Ironically, the proponents drew inspiration from US melting pot analogy that aims to treat everyone equally and eventual integration. Contrasting to the current 'salad bowl' approach - citing the division seen in extreme multiculturalism (European Islamic enclaves I think) as a point of failure. There's a lot going on: equalizing - read: repressing - legally "privileged" minorities back to equality status of the average Han without acknowledging other structural privileges of being Han in a Han dominated culture. Something, something, intersectionality.
Edit: As always, I have to clarify that I do not endorse what is happening in XinJiang. I think CPC is capable of doing better without committing mistakes the west already learned. My prediction is something like the cultural revolution / cultural genocide that will last years and a few generations from now if the situation stabilizes the CPC will express some remorse and platitudes for past mistakes under different leadership (sounds familiar as a Canadian). The difference is XinJiang will be better off compared to the prognosis in the west because China has the infrastructure capability to uplift XinJiang living standards. Contrast to the shithole reserves without plumbing and dependent on water boiling in Canada.
My biggest concern is that the CPC will probably pull it off, and the model for rapid integration will be exported around the world. Why do you think authoritarian muslim countries support China? The western narrative is Chinese $$$, but I think rulers of these countries are waiting on the sidelines trying (and secretly hoping) that the XinJiang experiment will work - you can easily swap out desecularizing with secularizing. Also see how sentiment towards muslim immigrants are shifting in Europe to see another possible future application. It wouldn't be the same of course, but vocation training center with European characteristics is more than plausible to me.
Edit2: To add, one of the fundamental characteristics about Chinese growth/rejuvenation whatever is doing big things fast. Integration is something that takes generations to cultivate, but of course China going to try to rush it. It worked in industrial widgets, it worked in academic papers, it's crazy to think it will work on hearts and mind, but who knows, maybe it will. Xi himself is a product of work camps. He's a believer.
The whole one China policy has always been confusing to me, but haven't done too much research. Taiwan, Hong Kong and China each have different entry requirements for example for visiting, yet they are supposed to be the same country? I guess it has to do with control after their civil war though, but confusing for people who haven't been following the whole story. They are not separate, yet they are separate is like…
One country can have various entry requirements for its regions. China’s own Hainan island lets me enter visa-free for 30 days while Mainland China doesn’t. Same identical country, different rules.
Just a very odd concept to someone from North America. If you fly to Miami you are allowed to visit New York or Seattle all the way across the country. Same with Canada.
I know Mexico has some odd things like that too though, you can visit border towns or cruise ports but if you want to go so much more inland you need a Visitor Permit called a FMM, or tourist card some refer to it as. Read conflicting amount of miles, seems about 12 miles though in. So seems like if your cruise final departure was in Mexico and you flew back home you might need to worry about it, but a port of call at the beach seems like most wouldn't need it. However read also flights and cruises will also include it with your ticket, but if you were taking a road trip across Mexico you'd for sure need to get one yourself it seems. But seems more like a tax than anything, since not the same as a visa.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Are there gas chambers in those camps? What on earth does it change whether there's gas chambers in there? If you're trying to claim they're not 1940s nazi germany, just say they don't speak german and be done with it. If you're aware of what's happening over there then you are aware of the torture, yes?
sorry, on mobile and could have phrased that better. Does the outright extermination of the Uyghurs appear to be the PRC's ultimate goal?
If you want to know where the threat of genocide exists, you don't look merely at rhetoric. Genocide happens across several discrete stages. It usually starts with popular sentiments such as "you are not like us, you are not one of us", proceeds to "you may not live among us", then ultimately ends in "you may not live". China is at the step immediately before extermination. The number one predictor of extermination isn't rhetoric, it's ghettoization and internment.
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1. Germany was preparing for outright war throughout the 1930s. Conscription was introduced in 1935.Is China seriously planning to militarily annex Taiwan? Leaving aside propaganda etc. 2. This point appears to be about how unfair historical treatment can lead to fascism. Are you saying that the people of China are headed in this direction? 3. I'll defer to your judgement as I presume you read mandarin/canto, but I d…
China is one of those rare countries in today's world which has border conflicts with each and every of its neighbors and is openly ignoring international norms. On top of that I don't think that it is investing heavily in military just for show.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Are there gas chambers in those camps? What on earth does it change whether there's gas chambers in there? If you're trying to claim they're not 1940s nazi germany, just say they don't speak german and be done with it. If you're aware of what's happening over there then you are aware of the torture, yes?
sorry, on mobile and could have phrased that better. Does the outright extermination of the Uyghurs appear to be the PRC's ultimate goal?