Joint Statement on the GNU Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#211

Post by bitwize » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:27 PM UTC

zabzonk wrote: post #176

dtornabene wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go with: So women can participate without having to be asked out on dates? So they don't feel harassed? You want to run cover for people do it in your own org man. This is beyond obtuse.

> So women can participate without having to be asked out on dates? What is so wrong about being asked by a man for a date? I (a man) have been asked lots of times for a date by women I worked with, some of them my superiors. Mostly I said "no", because I generally don't like mixing love life with work life, but the best relationship I've ever had was the time I said "yes". I don't see why RMS couldn't look for such…

In $CURRENT_YEAR it's considered harassment for a woman to be asked on a date by an insufficiently attractive man.

If Stallman looked like Chris Hemsworth, women would join the GNU Project for the opportunity to ask him on a date.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#212

Post by zabzonk » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #211

zabzonk wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So women can participate without having to be asked out on dates? What is so wrong about being asked by a man for a date? I (a man) have been asked lots of times for a date by women I worked with, some of them my superiors. Mostly I said "no", because I generally don't like mixing love life with work life, but the best relationship I've ever had was the time I said "yes". I don't see why RMS couldn't look for such…

In $CURRENT_YEAR it's considered harassment for a woman to be asked on a date by an insufficiently attractive man. If Stallman looked like Chris Hemsworth, women would join the GNU Project for the opportunity to ask him on a date.

Actually, in a spooky way RMS _does_ look like Hemsworth in the last Avengers film.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#213

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #167

otterley wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the truth or falsity of the minutiae, or whether the conclusions are fair or not are irrelevant. Once a former leader no longer has the political capital to be seen as effective, or their involvement proves to be a greater distraction than it's worth, no more needs to be said.

Have we really stopped being human beings at this point? Does even truth even matter anymore or just the shouts getting most retweets?

[deleted]

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#214

Post by _ph_ » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

starik36 wrote: post #53

badrequest wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably a number of people who are attracted to Linus Torvald's attitude and style, but I can assure you the number of people who do not contribute to the Linux kernel because they're turned off by it is significantly larger. It's absolutely in the best interest of the project that he adopt an attitude change permanently or step down. Just as most sports are 90% mental and only 10% physical, managing a lar…

And yet somehow, Linux is arguably the most successful open source project in the world.

Yes, it is, and surely Linus has done a great job as a leader overall. Yet, some of his rants absolutely crossed some lines, so there is good reason to critisize him for that.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#215

Post by blub » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 9:03 PM UTC

morelisp wrote: post #170

blub wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no one in that project that is such a fanatic and well-known personality that they'd be able to lead it. After being embraced, extended and diluted by corporations, software freedom will slide even more into irrelevance. This also doesn't seem to be a discussion, it's a statement towards Stallman to GTFO.

> There's no one in that project that is such a fanatic and well-known personality that they'd be able to lead it. Ignorance of the fame and effectiveness of several people on that list says more about your awareness of the current state of the FSF and GNU than it does about those organizations. Werner Koch led FSFE. Ian Jackson led Debian and SPI. Matt Lee is responsible for many of the FSF's major publicity campaig…

I don't doubt that they could lead the project from a purely administrative perspective, just like any of the other Tesla executives could in theory lead that company :)

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#216

Post by kungito » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 9:04 PM UTC

canarypilot wrote: post #185

blub wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no one in that project that is such a fanatic and well-known personality that they'd be able to lead it. After being embraced, extended and diluted by corporations, software freedom will slide even more into irrelevance. This also doesn't seem to be a discussion, it's a statement towards Stallman to GTFO.

That may well be true. Certainly, and reserving judgement on exactly what this means, nobody who could lead it quite like Stallman. But, I find the implication hard to accept. It would be to say that Stallman’s continuing presence is essential to the success of free software; surely a frightening responsibility for any one mortal person to carry through their remaining years! Free software has had success as a moveme…

I'd say an interesting question could be what was the reach of Stallman's leadership. I haven't followed GNU and FSF at all in my years while I am a comp sci guy and I do wonder on each new project which license to take. Free software is something which affect pretty directly every person on the planet yet few have heard about these movements. Software piracy is an example of a similar movement to free software which has had way more publicity with regular people. I'd say this has a lot to do with the persona of Stallman and the way he interacts with the world. People learn about who made the telephone and who discovered Americas but no high school coursebook mentions who created Linux or Python. Software has in many ways been instrumental in shaping the last 20 years yet people have never been more detached with the technology they use. Everything is a black box nowdays. Even concepts like client server communication is completely unknown to a laic. This is a failure of computer and software movements which have alienated themselves and the rest of us programmers from the public.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#217

Post by 68plus57equals5 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

Jasper_ wrote: post #45

etiam wrote: post #20

Oh my god. " all computer users" with the implication that Stallman is not representing the ones who demand to go straight to lynch mob behavior without a shadow if due process as soon as the word "sexual" is mentioned? And therefore Stallman should be thrown out of the project that is his creation and life's work? That's got to be one of the most forced political readings ever of that point in the manifesto. Well, i…

Stallman's behavior has been known to the community for a long time. He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. This isn't a new "witch hunt", it's been boiling forever, it's been known forever, but now the climate has changed enough that people are believing the allegations, and he's finally facing consequences for his actions.…

> He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago.

Could you name at least couple of those conferences he was banned from? Preferably with surrounding circumstances?

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#218

Post by blub » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

canarypilot wrote: post #185

blub wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no one in that project that is such a fanatic and well-known personality that they'd be able to lead it. After being embraced, extended and diluted by corporations, software freedom will slide even more into irrelevance. This also doesn't seem to be a discussion, it's a statement towards Stallman to GTFO.

That may well be true. Certainly, and reserving judgement on exactly what this means, nobody who could lead it quite like Stallman. But, I find the implication hard to accept. It would be to say that Stallman’s continuing presence is essential to the success of free software; surely a frightening responsibility for any one mortal person to carry through their remaining years! Free software has had success as a moveme…

I'm not worried about GNU projects or any project, I am worried about the idea of free software, which has and has had many supporters but only one champion.

I don't think it will survive. Rich corporations like Google or Microsoft will continue to fund open source projects when it suits them, while locking out users through the cloud and hardware. Those other supporters will play along, because the corporations are paying their salaries or donating to their projects.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#219

Post by dang » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

dtornabene wrote: post #164

bitwize wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't hate these people, especially not Andy Wingo. But if the likes of him or Chris Webber were to assume leadership of the GNU project, they would be one minor slip-up away from being purged themselves.

[flagged]

As far as I can tell, your substantive comments are mostly getting upvoted while your flamewar comments are mostly getting downvoted and flagged. That doesn't seem ideologically motivated.

Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and using HN as intended? Regardless of how right you are, perpetuating flamewar is destructive here.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#220

Post by blub » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

tssva wrote: post #156

blub wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utterly destroying a person's reputation should come with a damn high burden of proof. That article would be laughed out of any courtroom. Reading that has been a complete waste of time. To save everyone else some effort: 1. The man has problematic opinions. Welcome to democracy, where people with uncomfortable opinions are free to hold and discuss them. This is healthy. 2. He used a bad pick-up line, saying he'll ki…

1. The man has problematic opinions. Welcome to democracy, where people with uncomfortable opinions are free to hold and discuss them. This is healthy. People are free to hold and discuss them but others are just as free to exercise their democratic right of free association by choosing not to associate with you because of them.

Can you honestly say that the others have merely chosen not to associate with Stallman?

No, they are coordinating a character assassination campaign and are pressuring everyone to disavow him. It's disappointing to see people cheering mobs on, just because they seem to attack "bad" people, while forgetting that anyone can be made to look bad.