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Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

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Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#291

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

Macuyiko wrote: post #190
organsnyder wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I'd probably have made the same decision as you (I'm fortunate to have a safety net), but many people don't have that luxury.

I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.

I put the blame on both. We have a responsibility to exercise ethical discretion in our work, and we have the power to do so. If you get fired for refusing to remove the Taiwanese flag from iOS, then take to your blog, set a fire under Apple's ass, and wait for the interview offers to roll in.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#293

Post by reaperducer »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #278
tibbon wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure; but literally any day Tim Cook can say, "Ok China, I no longer play your game. Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". My point wasn't a specific developer (as you point out, they might have been in China themselves and unable to do otherwise), but that anyone in the chain who is "safe" and in a position of power and privilege to not-play China's game, I find morally dubious. Engineers in t…

> Sure; but literally any day Tim Cook can say, "Ok China, I no longer play your game. Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". No he cannot. He would be immediately removed at CEO and replaced with someone who played ball. Remember, Apple is a publicly traded company. What you're suggesting is, at a whim, Tim Cook could just completely tank the company. China has far, far more leverage over Apple…

No he cannot

Sure he can. Google bailed on China once. Apple certainly has the money and talent to do the same.

He would be immediately removed at CEO and replaced with someone who played ball.

Would he? Why do you assume that this would be bad for it share price, or that the majority of shareholders would be against it?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#294

Post by laughinghan »

Hamuko wrote: post #272
r00fus wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. Is this actually true? Or just a "institutional wisdom"?

It's false. It's just that it's close to what's actually true, so it's pretty easy to pass it as a fact. Basically, what a company is required to do is serve the BEST INTERESTS of its shareholders. This might not necessarily be the same as maximising shareholder value. https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-co...

Thanks for the clarification, I hadn't seen that before. Although I don't think the distinction changes the point I made.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#295

Post by reaperducer »

jmchuster wrote: post #265
r00fus wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. Is this actually true? Or just a "institutional wisdom"?

probably more that he's obligated to do so to keep his job

Tim Cook has enough money that he doesn't need to work anymore. It's not like he's a wage ape pounding code in a cubicle all day.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#296

Post by thrownaway954 »

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

OR... maybe the engineer doesn't give two sh*ts about politics and just wanted to give the task done and move on to something else. Not everyone cares about what is political or going on in the world. I'm glad you have this holy than thou attitude, but most could care less.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#297

Post by kuzimoto »

diminoten wrote: post #112
thrwn_frthr_awy wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the average American benefited as directly to the atrocites of the past. The U.S. simply cannot change course without a serious alteration of the the ethos of the country.

Oh we definitely have, everyone benefitted massively from the "manifest destiny" attitude behind the many atrocities committed against the native Americans. It's also not our fault , infar as we didn't literally pull any triggers. We're probably still complicit to some degree, however, by our general lack of support for reparation actions.

There are parts of US history where terrible things happened. It's important to acknowledge that, and be compassionate towards those it has affected.

However, now that the US exists, it does a lot of good for many, many people. As a first generation immigrant, I'm glad that I was able to come here, as I think conditions are much better than my country of origin.

That being said, am I complicit in everything bad that has happened here simply because I'm living here now? What amount of reparations are appropriate for me to give, considering neither I nor my ancestors likely had any involvement with any of those things.

Can any amount of money even make up for what happened?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#298

Post by brobinson »

headsupftw wrote: post #91
degenerate wrote: post #6

The degree that China goes to censor things reminds me of kindergarten. Pull the shades down, and kids won't want to go outside? Is it simply a reminder to their people of who's in charge, at this level of pettiness?

The United States doesn't officially recognize Taiwan as a country. Taiwan is not a member of the United Nations. Apple's revenue in Taiwan is peanuts compared to that of mainland China. The list goes on.

The US has also never recognized Taiwan as being part of the PRC. I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up in relation to the parent's comment.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#299

Post by LanceH »

L_Rahman wrote: post #228
tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

There is way for engineers to exercise their power to prevent things like this from happening, but it can only happen through collective action. Getting fired for not acceding to a demand like this isn't the result of an individual manager making a decision but the entire apparatus of corporate governance coming to bear on the person. It can be only be meaningfully resisted and fought with an equally organized group…

My experience with unions has been that the engineer wouldn't be fired and they would swap out someone willing to do it in exchange for some concession.
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