Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#241

Post by espadrine » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

degenerate wrote: post #6

The degree that China goes to censor things reminds me of kindergarten. Pull the shades down, and kids won't want to go outside? Is it simply a reminder to their people of who's in charge, at this level of pettiness?

> Is it simply a reminder to their people of who's in charge, at this level of pettiness?

Most countries have petty border disputes.

A famous country occupies territory in Cuba where it built a military prison. Cuba claims that the military presence is occupation of territory it rightfully owns. The famous country refuses to leave; it claims it only leases it based on a hundred-year-old document, and sends $4k checks yearly. Cuba denies, and refuses to cash the checks.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#242

Post by oldmanhorton » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #178

erk__ wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I beleive that the unicode consortium have chosen not to say much about witch flags are there pretty much for this reason. They don't want unicode to get mixed in with international politics.

It goes beyond that; technically, there are no flags in Unicode. Instead, there are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Indicator_Symbol — an symbol-alphabet where any pair of successive symbols from the alphabet are meant to be considered a ligature (so, a space of 36^2 = 1296 possible ligatures), where a subset of these ligatures are considered valid representations of a locale from the Unicode's https://en.wiki…

And for additional context, I believe every major OS vendor and many apps that bundle their own locale data have modifications on top of the stock CLDR database. Those modifications are mostly handled by legal teams, not by engineering.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#243

Post by tanilama » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #230

tibbon wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure; but literally any day Tim Cook can say, "Ok China, I no longer play your game. Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". My point wasn't a specific developer (as you point out, they might have been in China themselves and unable to do otherwise), but that anyone in the chain who is "safe" and in a position of power and privilege to not-play China's game, I find morally dubious. Engineers in t…

>Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". This would have to be done on a federal level. Just because Apple stopped doing this doesn't mean China would be any worse off. Google, Amazon, and every other tech company would still get in line to do whatever it takes to get that sweet, sweet money.

The tech decoupling had already happened.

Arguably the one and only big tech that has a significant Chinese stake, is Microsoft.

Google/Facebook/Netflix is banned, Amazon retreated. Oracle had just closed its research center.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#244

Post by dpkonofa » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

marnett wrote: post #205

hangonhn wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm not sure the average American benefited as directly to the atrocites of the past. " We live on a continent taken from a people by violence, betrayal, and disease -- some of it intentionally spread through government policies. Sorry, the average American are direct beneficiaries of the atrocities of the past. Some of us don't know or chose to ignore it. Update: I didn't say this to justify terrible things people…

> Sorry, the average American are direct beneficiaries of the atrocities of the past This is true for most humans alive in nearly all nation-states today. At some point in the linear chain of humanity that allows my existence today, atrocities were committed. Whether an ancient ancestor strangling a potential threat with their bare hands, or the nation-state I was born in acquiring land through militaristic expansion…

Of course but I think the point is that we can stop supporting the continued benefit of these. Money talks and both people and corporations can talk the talk by not supporting these countries and not caving to them.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#245

Post by laughinghan » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #218

mh8h wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to add another angle. Apple, as well as other tech companies, have many employees in China, and a lot of non-Chinese employees that travel to China regularly. Many of these changes are demanded by the PRC government and not abiding by those might risk imprisonment for those employees. Disclaimer: I work for Apple, but I don't work on iOS.

Sure; but literally any day Tim Cook can say, "Ok China, I no longer play your game. Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". My point wasn't a specific developer (as you point out, they might have been in China themselves and unable to do otherwise), but that anyone in the chain who is "safe" and in a position of power and privilege to not-play China's game, I find morally dubious. Engineers in t…

You genuinely believe Tim Cook has more leverage than China?

By what fraction do you think Apple's profits would drop if it had to rebuild all of its factories outside of China? By what fraction do you think China's GDP or tax revenue would drop if it kicked Apple out of China?

Even if that situation were reversed, Tim Cook answers to shareholders via a board of directors. He's legally obligated to maximize shareholder value. Who do you think the Chinese officials who want power over Taiwan answer to? What legal obligations of any kind do you think they are under?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#246

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

oasisbob wrote: post #207

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think most people on Hacker-News would know that Taiwan exists I frequently come across, in America, people who are genuinely surprised that Taiwan is a sovereign state.

Are you sure they don't just disagree with your use of the word sovereign? I find it a strange way to describe the ROC and Taiwan. Without a clear territory under exclusive control, recognition from other governments, or independence from the mainland, what's so sovereign about it?

> Are you sure they don't just disagree with your use of the word sovereign?

Yes, when people debate Taiwan’s sovereignty (for, independent foreign relations and a military, against, limited recognition) they understand the local context. That there is legitimate dispute with respect to its status is news to a surprising number of Americans.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#247

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #214

zdragnar wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? What makes you think that it was an engineer in the US who made the change? Apple's got employees all over the world, including in China. If anything, my first guess was the update was made from a team based in shanghai or shenzhen, since the emoji is already banned there.

I'm absolutely 100% certain that someone in the US was aware of this change, and signed off on it. What I'm saying is that there is no circumstance in which I'd personally do that, and as someone who is comparatively "rich" worldwide as an engineer, I have that luxury of putting my foot down and not doing it. I can have a new job tomorrow that probably pays me yet more. I don't blame anyone who is making $30k a year…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#248

Post by nabla9 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

South Park's latest episode was about Chinese censorship in the West.

'South Park' Scrubbed From Chinese Internet After Critical Episode https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/south-park-banned-chi...

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#249

Post by MiSeRyDeee » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

mikelyons wrote: post #162

squarefoot wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To fight the censorship cancer, would the western world have to agree to exclude and isolate China?" I would rather wait the day our beloved western world agrees on a single, objective, independent definition on what censorship is, then I would want to see people like Snowden, Manning, Assange and similar others walk free and unharmed. That day I could concede we would have superior moral grounds to exclude and isol…

Can you extrapolate about the link between whistle-blowers and the definition of censorship? It's unclear to me what point you're intending to make.

It's simple and clear: western country censors media as well.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#250

Post by thesquib » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

Apple is clearly focused on making money at all costs. It feels like breaking into the Chinese market is focusing all their business decisions - particularly the focus on cheaper phones, one OS to rule them all.