Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#231

Post by CapricornNoble » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #218

mh8h wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to add another angle. Apple, as well as other tech companies, have many employees in China, and a lot of non-Chinese employees that travel to China regularly. Many of these changes are demanded by the PRC government and not abiding by those might risk imprisonment for those employees. Disclaimer: I work for Apple, but I don't work on iOS.

Sure; but literally any day Tim Cook can say, "Ok China, I no longer play your game. Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". My point wasn't a specific developer (as you point out, they might have been in China themselves and unable to do otherwise), but that anyone in the chain who is "safe" and in a position of power and privilege to not-play China's game, I find morally dubious. Engineers in t…

>>> Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye

I would expect the Chinese to laugh as they've probably already stolen sufficient institutional and technical knowledge to respond with a "Bye Felicia" of their own.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#232

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

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Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#233

Post by Zenst » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

Simulacra wrote: post #224

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

I don’t think it’s the engineers fault. Apple is in business to make money, and China represents a huge chunk of money. The company seems to prioritize money over human rights in situations like these. Likely they had an engineer in China do it.

Yes, when it comes to trade and financial wealth of a country, then the amount of `social/humane` crimes you can get away with does seem to have an equation waiting to be officially formulated and named.

Don't make it right, but it is a common theme by many countries and how they put business of trade ahead of moral and for the right price, will look the other way. Not singularing out any country as more righteous or guilty than others, as not the motives here or the point. Just that it does happen and sadly, I don't see that changing. Which is sad as it is in corruption/bribery on many levels and just not seen for what it is.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#234

Post by tanilama » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #218

mh8h wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to add another angle. Apple, as well as other tech companies, have many employees in China, and a lot of non-Chinese employees that travel to China regularly. Many of these changes are demanded by the PRC government and not abiding by those might risk imprisonment for those employees. Disclaimer: I work for Apple, but I don't work on iOS.

Sure; but literally any day Tim Cook can say, "Ok China, I no longer play your game. Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye". My point wasn't a specific developer (as you point out, they might have been in China themselves and unable to do otherwise), but that anyone in the chain who is "safe" and in a position of power and privilege to not-play China's game, I find morally dubious. Engineers in t…

Enjoy having no support or economic progress from us - bye

Make no mistake, Apple can be replaced in a sec. It needs China not vice versa.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#235

Post by rhema » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

In 2008, I worked at livemocha.com. I remember there was a formerly Chinese national that mentioned the same problem. The company received complaints (from users, I think).

The story also reminds me of one dev's solution to conflicting instructions on how he was to label a button. So, he hard-coded special rules for each individual boss and both thought they got what they wanted.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#236

Post by coolblah » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

One word - H1B. It's either do as we say or get DEPORTED. We are no more than the highest paid slaves in history, we can't afford morals and personal opinions.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#237

Post by dpkonofa » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

leppr wrote: post #138

wccrawford wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd push the blame a little further on. Many, many people are just struggling to get by, and they pay as little as they possible can for their luxury goods. If they weren't struggling to get by on the wages they make, they could afford to be a little more picky about what they buy and how it's created.

The present piece of news goes against that argument though, as Apple devices are simultaneously the more expensive and less ethical option. These aspects don't seem correlated.

>less ethical option

Are you getting that because of this flag issue or is there more behind that? I would argue that Apple is, by far, the more ethical option.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#238

Post by cheaprentalyeti » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

option wrote: post #201

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

exactly. A lot of engineers in SV are in a good enough position to be actually able to do this without much setback for them and their families financially since they’ll be hired elsewhere right away

Hired where? We moved manufacturing to China. They can't work anywhere whose production isn't held hostage by the Chinese government, one way or another. For Apple this decision was made by Steve Jobs and Tim Cook back in 2004 or something like that. They can't get their independence back because a low-level engineer decides to be idealistic, the check was cashed a long while ago.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#239

Post by learc83 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

api wrote: post #96

learc83 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TPP was designed to contain China. China wasn't a part of it.

If that's true then I'm wrong, but I'll need a reference on that. My understanding has been that the TPP was about opening China to further outsourcing of white collar work by regularizing IP law on paper (which the Chinese would just ignore of course). This would have allowed more paralegal, contract writing, engineering, and even things like radiology (X-ray and scan interpretation) to be outsourced, further guttin…

https://cjil.uchicago.edu/publication/how-united-states-uses...

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#240

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #191

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

> What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? What makes you think that it was an engineer in the US who made the change? Apple's got employees all over the world, including in China. If anything, my first guess was the update was made from a team based in shanghai or shenzhen, since the emoji is already banned there.

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