Joint Statement on the GNU Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#71

Post by otterley » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

ilikehurdles wrote: post #43

jordigh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of us who care. We can preserve software freedom with the same stubborn, uncompromising attitude without having to also alienate the very people we wish to help.

It would be valuable to see your group put up a statement articulating the specific actions taken by Stallman and how they have caused "those who [you] want to reach out to" to be alienated. You may think that some collective consciousness is both aware of these actions and fully in agreement with this statement, but as the comments here will indicate, it's entirely possible that either one of these or both isn't tru…

That's already been publicized ad nauseum by others in the past few weeks. I don't think the authors owe anyone any duty to reiterate it.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#72

Post by dtornabene » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

For anyone coming to this, I can't speak for all of the people on that list, but the ones that I've met personally, over a decade now in the free software world, are decent caring people actually following the creed of freedom to its rightful conclusion. The idea that this is a "witchhunt" is absurd.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#73

Post by mark_l_watson » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

I personally think that Richard Stallman is both not getting fair treatment and to some extent brought this on himself.

For me, the GNU project becomes much less interesting without his blog articles, public talks, etc.

I had let my FSF membership lapse, was thinking of renewing, and now probably won’t.

Off topic, but I enjoyed seeing the leaders of the various GNU projects listed in one place as signers of this letter. I don’t agree with them but it is good to see their names and projects listed.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#74

Post by simion314 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

Jasper_ wrote: post #45

etiam wrote: post #20

Oh my god. " all computer users" with the implication that Stallman is not representing the ones who demand to go straight to lynch mob behavior without a shadow if due process as soon as the word "sexual" is mentioned? And therefore Stallman should be thrown out of the project that is his creation and life's work? That's got to be one of the most forced political readings ever of that point in the manifesto. Well, i…

Stallman's behavior has been known to the community for a long time. He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. This isn't a new "witch hunt", it's been boiling forever, it's been known forever, but now the climate has changed enough that people are believing the allegations, and he's finally facing consequences for his actions.…

What allegations ?

You came now after years with some people memories on what may have happened? Would you like to be accused of something that you may have said 20 years ago, that is not a crime but may have upset someone? Why not talk about the present, the last year and not dig ancient history because there is nothing recent to complain about.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#75

Post by choeger » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

badrequest wrote: post #46

bitwize wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Stallman. This is an attempted systematic ouster of old-school hackers (and new-school hackers with old-school values) from positions of leadership. Stallman is just the latest target and also one of the softest. They have also called for the removal of: * Linus Torvalds ( after he apologized and approved the adoption of their code of conduct) * Ted Ts'o * the entire FSF board The problem is that while…

You've whipped up quite a strawman to get angry at, do you have any proof of this conspiracy?

Well he is empirically right about the code of conducts, the public attacks on free software figures, and the denial of free speech. I would call it typical radical leftist behavior instead of a conspiracy, but everything else checks out.

You, for instance, mentioned above that it would be impossible for a minor to engage in consensual sexual behavior without even considering for a moment that there are more liberal (and I'd say more civilized) societies that define "consensual" and especially "minor" quite differently. It is exactly this absolutist enforcement of a particular pov that alienates many observers.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#76

Post by romaaeterna » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

bbanyc wrote: post #51

romaaeterna wrote: post #32

So these people speak for all humankind? Wow. I wonder how that works. Is there a certification process? Truly this is a brave group of 20 white men.

That GNU is nearly all white men is further proof of Stallman's unfit leadership.

Preach it. I am constantly running into underprivileged minority woman who just want to write code under free licenses, but have instead been Stallmanized. Sometimes I can tell that they would like to cry on my shoulder about it, but they don't because they are too strong, of course, being women and also being minorities.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#77

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

golf2 wrote: post #41

coolreader18 wrote: post #6

Wow, so what does this imply? Is this a coup d'état or just a _request_ for Stallman to cede part of his leadership to more people?

GNU has clearly outlived its usefulness putting social justice before free software.

These are not mutually exclusive ideas. In fact, they're complimentary if you turn your head and squint a bit; the Four Freedoms are targeted at minimizing the creation of a classist world where some people control software and others merely run it. Avoidance of a classist world is a "social justice" concept.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#78

Post by kennywinker » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #61

snotrockets wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due process is for the court. If you ousted yourself as an asshole in public, people not wanting to associate with you isn't legal, it's civilized society.

We, as a society, have established due process in the government and courts because we believe it's the right thing - the moral thing - to do. If it's the right thing to do for the most powerful entity in our land, what makes it not the right thing to do in all venues?

If I come to your house for dinner, and am an asshole to you and your family, do we need to get the law involved or should you just not invite me over for dinner again?

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#79

Post by bjourne » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #26

jordigh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He quit the FSF and MIT. GNU is not the same thing as the FSF, despite their close ties. He has ascertained he still maintains a leadership role in GNU, and he has quite a contingency of devoted followers who think this is all a witch hunt against him.

It's not just Stallman. This is an attempted systematic ouster of old-school hackers (and new-school hackers with old-school values) from positions of leadership. Stallman is just the latest target and also one of the softest. They have also called for the removal of: * Linus Torvalds ( after he apologized and approved the adoption of their code of conduct) * Ted Ts'o * the entire FSF board The problem is that while…

You're definitely painting with a broad brush. You can read Stallman's site and see for yourself that he is as left as they come (which is waaaay more left than "liberal"). Insinuating that there is some grand left-wing cabal conspiring to oust the "true hackers" is wrong. Some people apparently think Stallman is unfit to lead GNU, other people think he is. There is no need to throw accusations of malice around.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#80

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

excursionist wrote: post #70

I see claims of users not being 'empowered' and not being able to 'trust' GNU software.. because of Stallman? Sorry, but what does the controversy surrounding Stallmman have to do with user empowerment and trust? Has Stallman been preventing people from using GNU software? Does the trustworthiness of this free, open source software diminish because of Stallman's opinion on some social/political issues that are comple…

They aren't completely unrelated to software. One can't divorce community issues from technical issues when the project in question has a "philosophy" page. From said page (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html)

""" “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. """

The way rms treats people involved in GNU goes directly to what is meant by 'community.' Consider, as comparative example, the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the phrase "all men are created equal," and that it was penned by a slaveowner and did not lead to a government that freed those slaves for over 80 years (regardless of what the words on paper said).