Joint Statement on the GNU Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#61

Post by falcolas » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

snotrockets wrote: post #34

etiam wrote: post #20

Oh my god. " all computer users" with the implication that Stallman is not representing the ones who demand to go straight to lynch mob behavior without a shadow if due process as soon as the word "sexual" is mentioned? And therefore Stallman should be thrown out of the project that is his creation and life's work? That's got to be one of the most forced political readings ever of that point in the manifesto. Well, i…

Due process is for the court. If you ousted yourself as an asshole in public, people not wanting to associate with you isn't legal, it's civilized society.

We, as a society, have established due process in the government and courts because we believe it's the right thing - the moral thing - to do. If it's the right thing to do for the most powerful entity in our land, what makes it not the right thing to do in all venues?

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#62

Post by otterley » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

starik36 wrote: post #53

badrequest wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably a number of people who are attracted to Linus Torvald's attitude and style, but I can assure you the number of people who do not contribute to the Linux kernel because they're turned off by it is significantly larger. It's absolutely in the best interest of the project that he adopt an attitude change permanently or step down. Just as most sports are 90% mental and only 10% physical, managing a lar…

And yet somehow, Linux is arguably the most successful open source project in the world.

Perhaps, but we do not know how much better it could be today if potential contributors were not dissuaded by the politics and behavior of the existing participants.

Popularity is only one gauge of success. There are other metrics, such as personal satisfaction, missing features, or other things that the project may have failed or scored less well on.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#63

Post by Smithalicious » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

This statement makes clear to me that I can no longer trust (parts of) the GNU project to prioritize software freedom and making good software over catering to hateful lynchmobs and virtue signalling.

There's no meaningful way for me to act on this current, since "boycotting" GNU does nothing to harm these bad elements and I do not contribute back to GNU. I can merely convey my profound disapproval.

This is a disgrace. This is no way to treat someone. It's nothing short of utterly disrespectful and self-serving. RMS is, in my view, a completely innocent man; even in the most negative sensible reading of the situation, he is guilty of a minor transgression at most. Even in the most negative sensible reading of supposed transgressions spread over decades, he does not deserve this.

RMS has done more to empower all computer users than all of these signees combined. I'm very saddened by this torrent of hate, short-sightedness and obedience to the mob. To me, GNU represents fighting for freedom even if nobody else believes in it; this is the opposite of that.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#64

Post by dtornabene » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #15

If I believed for a second that any successor candidate to lead the GNU project gave as much of a fuck about software and personal freedom as Stallman did/does, I might support them. My confidence that this will transpire, however, is not high.

I can tell you for a fact that Chris Webber, one of the signers on that list, does indeed give a fuck about personal freedom as much as stallman does. Indeed it is precisely because these people believe in such freedom that they are standing up for the women who no one has chosen to listen to and its beyond gross the reaction of every fool who's never so much as filed a bug report or attended a meeting spewing out hate for them.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#65

Post by simion314 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

ghettoimp wrote: post #11

al_form2000 wrote: post #4

What a nice piece of backstabbing. Class.

I suppose you could interpret it that way. It reads to me more like a statement of values, going forward.

There is nothing factual on how RMS actually did damage to GNU and how exactly this guys will by magic fix that damage.

Seems mostly a PR move and it will probably fracture GNU

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#66

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #57

badrequest wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably a number of people who are attracted to Linus Torvald's attitude and style, but I can assure you the number of people who do not contribute to the Linux kernel because they're turned off by it is significantly larger. It's absolutely in the best interest of the project that he adopt an attitude change permanently or step down. Just as most sports are 90% mental and only 10% physical, managing a lar…

It depends though, I agree that it sucks to work daily with a jerk but as we see today people get outraged by pronouns, things you maybe said in the past, your private opinion on sexuality, your private opinion on politics. It would be a pathetic excuse to fire Linus because 25 years ago insulted some BSD guys in an email or some other developer in a different email, the internet was different then and there was no C…

Mostly because we have enough evidence now to know how those private opinions aggregate to real damage to the people they're arrayed against, systemically.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#67

Post by bitwize » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

badrequest wrote: post #50

bitwize wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when it's your head that Sarah Mei and Sage Sharp are calling for, will you hold the line?

They'll never call for my head because I wouldn't suggest that minor-aged victims of sexual assault could have been engaging consensually.

Neither did Stallman. What he said was that it likely appeared that she was engaging consensually. And he was certainly no fan of Epstein, whom he called a serial rapist.

Lest you think this is a niggling distinction, Sage Sharp pronounced Linus guilty of inciting violence by making a humorous comment about his friend Greg Kroah-Hartman's height. (Something like: "Greg is a giant; watch out or he might squish you.")

That's how they operate. They go digging to find the six words that will hang you, and if you don't capitulate they go to your boss (read: corporate sponsors if you have your own project).

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#68

Post by dtornabene » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

badrequest wrote: post #46

bitwize wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Stallman. This is an attempted systematic ouster of old-school hackers (and new-school hackers with old-school values) from positions of leadership. Stallman is just the latest target and also one of the softest. They have also called for the removal of: * Linus Torvalds ( after he apologized and approved the adoption of their code of conduct) * Ted Ts'o * the entire FSF board The problem is that while…

You've whipped up quite a strawman to get angry at, do you have any proof of this conspiracy?

of course they don't. because there isn't any. These people, some of whom, like Andy Wingo and Chris Webber, have been doing this for well over a decade. its asinine.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#69

Post by oknenavin » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

uncletaco wrote: post #28

benji_is_me wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's [1] the list of contributors to GNU. Note that it also includes past contributors. [1] https://www.gnu.org/people/

Not sure if that list is comprehensive. Neither Ludovic Courtes or John Wiegley are on it (and they are both signatories of the open letter).

Maybe it tells us something about the "joint" part? So mob-sad..

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#70

Post by excursionist » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

I see claims of users not being 'empowered' and not being able to 'trust' GNU software.. because of Stallman?

Sorry, but what does the controversy surrounding Stallmman have to do with user empowerment and trust? Has Stallman been preventing people from using GNU software? Does the trustworthiness of this free, open source software diminish because of Stallman's opinion on some social/political issues that are completely unrelated to software?