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For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

nytimes.com

181–190 of 504 posts

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#181
post #48
post #3

That is correct, the rich don't pay any taxes at all (whenever the can). The was a recent thread on HN regarding tax audits [0]. What I got from that is that the IRS cannot afford to audit the rich because their taxes are complicated and they don't have enough resources to do so. They choose to audit the poor instead because, it is simpler.. link [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176705

Careful. The two articles rely on vastly different cherry-picked definitions of who counts as rich, and neither claim is even remotely true anymore if you use the other definition. The top 1% are indeed audited at about the same rate as the working poor, but they also pay higher taxes than everyone else. This NYT article on the other hand picks out the top 400, who apparently pay lower taxes but are much more aggress…

Nah we don’t need to be careful here.

The threat of violence is the only blocker to raising taxes. All out war is bad for business.

The rich are absolutely not special. And our system does not give on shit about being careful about fairness for the poor.

Where are the billion dollar bailouts for average workers?

Wall Street however: oh you fucked up? Try again on us!

You can point to some carefully contextualized economic math and I can point to Greenspan saying in 1997 wage stagnation is keeping people in jobs which is good for business.

They know and have for years what they’re doing at a policy level. They’re benefiting the rich.

Shove careful up your backside. We don’t owe them servicing debt their profits foist on us. Tbh I don’t feel any obligation to support “careful” politically. Let the elite play the same game of “where is my next meal coming from?” roulette.

Stay home, figure it out with your neighbors.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#182
post #75
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. That's the strategy the Military uses - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pent... "At a cost of $400 million, some 1,200 auditors charged into the jungle of military finance, but returned in defeat. They were unable to pass the Pentagon or flunk it. They could only offer no opinion, explaining the military’s empire of hundreds of acronymic accounting silos was too illogical to penetrate"

Remember when Rumsfeld announced that 2.3T USD were missing from the military? https://www.city-journal.org/html/americas-missing-money-157... Yeah, nor do most people. The date he announced that? September 10, 2001. The section of the Pentagon hit? The accounting wing with all the records.

I do recall that, and recall discussion of it after 9/11.

As for what I infer is an implication of the 9/11 attack being motivated by a desire to cover this up, I can't find any reference to the outer ring of the west wing of the Pentagon being "the accounting wing". Even if it were, I can't imagine that we're doing our federal accounting in the 21st Century on paper that's stored only in one central location.

That said, the military is in fact missing a ton of money and is not in compliance with laws that require annual audits of all federal departments. That's a huge problem that should be addressed, but I see no evidence whatsoever that it's in any way related to 9/11.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#183
post #6

This article fails to account for exemptions and deductions. This post[1] by the Tax Foundation explains it: > However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes. Today the 1% pay a little over 36% of their income to taxes. 1. https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/

Both the OP's article and yours have Zucman and Saez as a primary source for the data, so I doubt they'd contradict each other. It's 2 different arguments, one about the legal tax rate and one about the effective tax rate. In both cases the 50s were higher.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#184
> The Confederacy’s hostility to taxes ultimately hampered its ability to raise money and fight the Civil War.

That's a great footnote! I had thought of this several years ago and found a paper detailing the finances of the Confederacy, and boy were they ugly! The Civil War could have been won without a land war at all! It would have gone bankrupt either way. It couldn't issue debt and its farming citizens were selling crops to the government at inflated prices, which it was hoping to use and sell. The blockade prevented the selling, and it had limited use.

When I think about it, the union which won learned to resort to sanctions almost exclusively.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#185

Their money working for them. I think this is as it should be. But, all kind of inheritance should be banned, or to be created at heavy tax. That way, a rich self made person got to have and spend his money any way he wants, and at the same time, undeserved millionaire and billionaire get taxed.

So you want it to just be illegal for any person to gift money to another person?

I think there is a reasonably balance to be found somewhere between not being able to give your friend 5$ and being able to make everyone even tangentially related to you into billionaires that do nothing but collect and spend the interest on their wealth.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#186
> The overall tax rate on the richest 400 households last year was only 23 percent, meaning that their combined tax payments equaled less than one quarter of their total income.

The total income of the top 400 is just 1.3% of total income, so the tax rate on these people is largely irrelevant. The top 1%, who make 20% of all income, do indeed pay higher tax rates than everyone else. Any smaller grouping (billionaires, people making $10 million a year) comprise too small a fraction of the tax base for it to matter. Hell, you could tax the wealth of the top 400 at 100% and it would just pay for a single year of Medicare for All.

Articles like this are political cover for the upper middle class, to shield the fact that the real reason we don’t have European-style social services is that the American middle class pays vastly lower taxes. American corporate taxes and top bracket income taxes are in line with that of countries like Canada, Germany, etc. https://taxfoundation.org/sources-of-government-revenue-oecd... Until the Trump tax cuts, the actual effective corporate tax rate was higher than those countries. For example, New Zealand’s been a media darling recently on the left. But it’s got a 33% top income tax bracket, a lower corporate tax rate than California even after the Trump tax cuts, and no capital gains taxes. What it does have is a significant GST and a top income tax bracket that kicks in at $70,000.

The article paints this narrative about what’s happened since the 70% top tax brackets of the 1940s. That narrative is incorrect, because it ignores that the tax base was narrower. (Many things like corporate expense accounts were not taxed.) In fact the top effective bracket has been remarkably stable at around 40%.

It is also misleading by omission. It dismisses, without any citation, the notion that tax reform has had any effect on economic growth. In fact, the whole developed world has broadened the tax base while cutting rates, especially for businesses. While it’s hard to establish causation, Europe in the 1970s and 1980s, before Reaganism, Thatcherism, and Merkelism, was a lot less economically competitive than it is today. Canada did the same exact thing, under both liberal and conservative administrations. (Trudeau, another media darling, presides over a country with a 33% top income tax bracket and a 16.5% capital gains tax rate).

There is a proven model for how to get the kind of society the New York Times evidently wants. Look to Europe. Deregulate, cut corporate taxes, and make the middle class pay for its own benefits through high sales and social insurance taxes.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, nobody asks what we the people could do if we were just taxed at the same rate as these hated class enemies. We might spend it on things we actually want, which of course is to be prevented at all costs.

45% of Americans pay no federal income tax. The top 20% of earners pay 80% of taxes.

This stat is disingenuous when used out of context. The bottom 45% still pay SS/payroll taxes, which is quite regressive due to the $127k cap. When you consider that along with consumption and property taxes, their effective rate of taxation is still moderate.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#188
post #3

That is correct, the rich don't pay any taxes at all (whenever the can). The was a recent thread on HN regarding tax audits [0]. What I got from that is that the IRS cannot afford to audit the rich because their taxes are complicated and they don't have enough resources to do so. They choose to audit the poor instead because, it is simpler.. link [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176705

Fortunately four states lost a lawsuit[0] attempting to overturn the 2017 Tax changes, specifically they went after the cap on deductions allowed that could be deducted off Federal taxes with regards to taxes paid to states and cities.

In effect what they wanted was for their citizens to be able to write off a much higher level of state and local taxes against the Federal tax debt owed. This is how high tax states in turn claw back money their citizens would other pay to the Feds, by being able to write it off Federal taxes State taxes can be increased and the burden passed along.

Not much different than some subsidies that favor wealthy households over all others in the form of "saving the environment". Watch how holier than thou a hand out is defended with to understand how money is given back to those least needing it. I am guilt of accepting the $7500 handout TWICE for EVs. I have always though that it should have been restricted to much less expensive cars to encourage their development but instead the Federal credit has no limit, car price or income level. IF you pay that much Federal Tax you got it back.

So don't just focus on how much the "rich" pay or don't pay, also focus on all the handouts to people with good to great incomes just masked behind feel good names. (education - in particular master and higher degrees is a subsidy to the same)

[0] https://reason.com/2019/10/07/federal-court-rules-against-bl...

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#189
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to [0], a major general (O-8) makes something like $160k, depending on years of experience. I'm sure there's additional hazard pay and such, but you wouldn't expect a general to be making millions through their core pay. [0]: https://www.navycs.com/charts/2019-military-pay-chart.html

Yeah but that doesn't include their kickbacks, consulting fees, etc. Can active duty generals sit on the board of directors of companies? I seem to remember a startup I worked at had one either on the board or heavily involved as a consultant but I can't remember if he was active duty at the time.

Active duty personnel aren't allowed to take on a second job, side hustle, etc. without written permission, and I understand that that permission is relatively uncommon. That doesn't completely answer your question (maybe generals get that permission more often), but it may point directionally.

The other thing that can confuse this issue is that Generals and Admirals generally (sorry) keep their titles after retirement. So if you have "Gen. James McClinton" on your board, that doesn't speak to whether or not they're active.

From looking around, it looks like board recruitment efforts toward Admirals and Generals are targeted at those who are retired or nearing retirement: http://blogs.reuters.com/financial-regulatory-forum/2012/01/...

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#190
post #175

We should tax wealth not income. Yes I know it's hard to calculate. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Also financial penalties should be percentages of wealth, not fixed dollar amounts (perhaps with a floor). E.g. fine for littering is 1% wealth.

Real estate taxes are a form of wealth tax. One thing about real estate and salary is that there is a clear geographic origin (you work in a state, your property is in a state) that I think makes it a lot easier than going after total wealth.
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