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For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

nytimes.com

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Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#51

Post by gorpovitch »

I'm tired to read articles written inside "Opinions" sections.(not that I necessarily disagree with it, you guys are explaining how this article is right or wrong better than me).

I would really like (not intended at HN, it's a general crisis in my life) to read more articles about politics that are neutral and factually oriented. It seems like 90% of the political content I read twists facts and build cheap, cherry-picked arguments to push for their opinions without any scientifical / logical humility (Discussing hypotheses, advancing honest counter arguments...). I am yet to find political writers / journalists raising questions without already knowing the answers to them. Real thinking instead of outrage porn (as another commenter wrote ; I like that expression)

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#52

Post by PhasmaFelis »

tartoran wrote: post #3

That is correct, the rich don't pay any taxes at all (whenever the can). The was a recent thread on HN regarding tax audits [0]. What I got from that is that the IRS cannot afford to audit the rich because their taxes are complicated and they don't have enough resources to do so. They choose to audit the poor instead because, it is simpler.. link [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176705

This seems like the "looking for your keys under the lamp post" joke. https://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2016/03/the-street...

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#53

Post by [deleted] »

ggreer wrote: post #6

This article fails to account for exemptions and deductions. This post[1] by the Tax Foundation explains it: > However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes. Today the 1% pay a little over 36% of their income to taxes. 1. https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/

[deleted]

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#54

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #5

There’s so much that could be done if we taxed the ultra rich and huge corporations just a little bit more, and more effectively.

The "more effectively" part is important here. Plenty of people will happily vote for increased corporation tax here in the UK to stick it to those evil billionaires and just end up ruining small businesses in the process (while of course the likes of Amazon, Google and Starbucks carry on paying essentially nothing).

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#55

Post by sorenn111 »

partingshots wrote: post #22

So since this is all 100% legal, are there resources available for people like us in the upper middle class bracket working as engineers in Silicon Valley to take advantage of all this? Almost half of my salary goes to taxes every paycheck. That’s almost $150,000 I literally never get to see just taken away.

If you're earning 300k (estimated from the almost 150k you said you pay in taxes), are you really in the upper middle class? from this article [1], 300k salary puts you in the top 5% of income earners. i don't know how you figure that makes you upper middle class?

[1]: https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-incom...

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#56

Post by Excel_Wizard »

This article doesn't do a good job of explaining the income breakdown of the top 400 households. I imagine it is nearly 100% long term capital gains and dividends. That doesn't explain the change in the chart that occurred in 2018 though.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#57

Post by throwaway926 »

ivalm wrote: post #38
refurb wrote: post #19

What a shit article. It's well known that despite the high marginal tax rates of the past, very few people ever paid those. Deductions abound that have since been eliminated. What you should really look at is real effective tax rates by income level.[1] What you'll find is that the top 1% make 19% of all income, but pay 37% of all taxes, with an average tax rate of 27%. The bottom 50% earn 11% of all income, but only…

The graph in article is effective, not marginal. The poorest do pay less in absolute numbers because they are poor, that's a statement of income inequality, not progressivity of the tax rate.

They have higher marginal and effective rates. The title "The Rich Do Pay Lower Taxes Than You" is so false and ill-intentioned it says a lot about journalism and the left.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#58

Post by captainbland »

traderjane wrote: post #8
Synaesthesia wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I thought workers owning the means of production was communism, whereas socialism has come to mean the distribution of value to society through highly general programs.

My understanding is as such:

Communism (the ideal): a classless, moneyless society where all states around the world have withered away and people are free to organise themselves outside the tyranny of the state or private property owners

Communist Party: Authoritarians who like to use the above as a carrot and seem to like to create one-party states who never wither away. They claim to represent workers but tend to stick their own representatives anywhere that has any economic significance. Leftist critics of such societies often characterise this as "state capitalism" where the state is effectively one gigantic, brutal monopoly. In Lenin's words "He who does not work, neither shall he eat."

Socialism (marxist): Workers own the means of production as a vital step towards communism

Bourgeois socialism: A pejorative for what we call social democracy or democratic socialism

Social democracy: The distribution of value to society through highly general programs, as you put it, within a liberal, capitalist society.

Democratic socialism: Social ownership (i.e. co-ops, municipal ownership, some nationalisation) of the "means of production", usually still within a market and otherwise retaining liberal democracy and usually also aiming to implement social democratic policies, too.

Also interesting: Ricardian socialism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardian_socialism

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#59

Post by xenocyon »

throwaway926 wrote: post #50
xenocyon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your source is a controversial one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation

These numbers are consistent across studies, and across countries. So try harder next time you want to discredit sources of data you don't like.

As others have commented, their very choice of the top 1% when talking about the super-rich is a disingenuous one.

Re: For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans paid a lower tax rate

#60

Post by weberc2 »

xenocyon wrote: post #41
refurb wrote: post #19

What a shit article. It's well known that despite the high marginal tax rates of the past, very few people ever paid those. Deductions abound that have since been eliminated. What you should really look at is real effective tax rates by income level.[1] What you'll find is that the top 1% make 19% of all income, but pay 37% of all taxes, with an average tax rate of 27%. The bottom 50% earn 11% of all income, but only…

Your source is a controversial one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation

Maybe it is, but that Wikipedia article doesn’t illustrate any controversy (unless I missed something), only that we should take the source with a grain of salt.
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