The Troubling Economics of Food Halls • Hacker News Board

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#21

Post by mikestew » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #17

Nasrudith wrote: post #14

The oyster example has me wondering if they would have been better off subletting if say split the morning slot with a breakfast place and do a change over at some point. The main objection being enpty booths harm the common's benefit.

One issue is that sharing your facilities with a different business (which probably has significantly different physical plant requirements) has its own set of problems. It's actually pretty common in cities more generally that you have coffeeshops that are closed in the evenings in the midst of a bustling restaurant and bar scene. As I recall, Starbucks actually looked into doing some sort of wine bar transformation…

As I recall, Starbucks actually looked into doing some sort of wine bar transformation in the evenings at some locations.

They implemented in at least one store in a Seattle suburb. I'm not a wine drinker, so I just know they had a flyer for it a few years ago. I don't know if it is still on-going. But your point stands: I don't know that one can flip baristas to sommeliers with a switch at 5:00. So is there a shift change? Employees are trained on both? I dunno, I applaud the thinking, but don't know that it's practical. I should run up to the Woodinville SBUX sometime and see if they're still doing it.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#22

Post by m-watson » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

aklemm wrote: post #7

The massively disappointing thing about modern food halls is that they aren’t like classic ones in Seattle, Toronto, or other places where you can actually get groceries. There should be, at minimum, local bread, meat, produce, and dairy at any of these places. Instead it’s all overpriced food porn.

Places like that do exist but I agree they should be more common. DC food halls often double as market places, but other cities do seem to lack that side of the hall.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#23

Post by peterwwillis » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

Food halls are just food markets without the market, for the "upwardly mobile".

Baltimore Lexington Market was an indoor food market established in 1782, and still exists today. It's enormous. There are dozens of vendors selling everything from cosmetics and electronics to fresh fish & meat, and lots of prepared foods. One of the city's most famous crab cake eateries, Faidley's, has been operating here since 1886.

Another famous one is Philadelphia's Reading Terminal Market. Established in 1893 (young whipper snapper!), it's the same idea as Lexington Market, but a bit more upscale. Tons of vendors selling an array of products, and an easy (if not crowded) meeting place.

There are very few original food markets left in the US, but the few that do exist are community gathering places in addition to being a good meal at a decent price, and a place to do some shopping. They're not inscrutable or poorly understood. But they're also not regular restaurant businesses. Stalls come and go every year, and the really good ones (usually family owned and operated) thrive with a repeat customer base as well as tourist flare.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#24

Post by Pxtl » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

I've literally never seen one of these - are they the new thing? Sounds like an upscale hipster version of a mall food court. No surprise that owners are looking to hold the vendors over a barrel - everybody sees dollar-signs at being able to capture upscale dollars with "rustic" setting.

I mean, we have an indoor farmer's market with eateries in it in my city, and of course it is a popular destination for hipsters. But I could see how trying to force that experience could just make a mess.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#25

Post by admn2 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:42 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #24

I've literally never seen one of these - are they the new thing? Sounds like an upscale hipster version of a mall food court. No surprise that owners are looking to hold the vendors over a barrel - everybody sees dollar-signs at being able to capture upscale dollars with "rustic" setting. I mean, we have an indoor farmer's market with eateries in it in my city, and of course it is a popular destination for hipsters.…

When I was in Denver last, they had 3 or 4 of them that all seemed to do pretty well. Basically these huge warehouse spaces sub-divided up. Some of them even had full fledged restaurants, art studios, breweries, coffee shops, etc.

The "landlord" usually puts a bar in the middle, which is obviously the highest margin part of any restaurant. They get the benefit of making money on drinks and events, plus they give patrons a great reason to come there to drink with so many food options.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#26

Post by pnw_hazor » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #23

Food halls are just food markets without the market, for the "upwardly mobile". Baltimore Lexington Market was an indoor food market established in 1782, and still exists today. It's enormous. There are dozens of vendors selling everything from cosmetics and electronics to fresh fish & meat, and lots of prepared foods. One of the city's most famous crab cake eateries, Faidley's, has been operating here since 1886. An…

We visited Philly and Baltimore for Army-Navy Football games. When in Philly, the Reading Terminal market was our favorite and primary food source.

It was interesting that while there certainly were a lot of tourists there, you still enjoyed meals elbow to elbow with locals.

I can't remember if we went to the Lexington Market in Baltimore, (we stayed near the inner harbor area) kind of bummed we didn't check it out when we had the chance.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#27

Post by scottlocklin » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

I have no idea what the economics of the European ones are, but there sure are a lot of very old "food halls" (usually combined with markets) in European countries. Presumably they have the economics figured out, since they've been there for a long time.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#28

Post by babesh » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

abeisgreat wrote: post #4

This whole article feels like they're trying to brew trouble that isn't really there. They compare cost per sqft of rental space in a food hall, which they admin includes many extra things related to running the surrounding food hall (including build out, sanitary maintenance, etc) to renting empty business space and claims the food hall is expensive. They admit that many vendors found the food hall to be productive…

The primary issue is the sweetheart deal New Orleans gave to Donaldson. The rest is just information asymmetry that this article will serve to correct.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#29

Post by Scoundreller » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #21

ghaff wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One issue is that sharing your facilities with a different business (which probably has significantly different physical plant requirements) has its own set of problems. It's actually pretty common in cities more generally that you have coffeeshops that are closed in the evenings in the midst of a bustling restaurant and bar scene. As I recall, Starbucks actually looked into doing some sort of wine bar transformation…

As I recall, Starbucks actually looked into doing some sort of wine bar transformation in the evenings at some locations. They implemented in at least one store in a Seattle suburb. I'm not a wine drinker, so I just know they had a flyer for it a few years ago. I don't know if it is still on-going. But your point stands: I don't know that one can flip baristas to sommeliers with a switch at 5:00. So is there a shift…

I thought it was practical because they already have the real estate and coffee sales gotta drop off a lot in the evening.

Pivoting into wine is easier than dinner.

And a lot of Starbucks’ customers would like a wine bar and don’t have great alternatives in many areas.

Only issue I could see is that a lot of places don’t let you take alcohol out of the bar you served it at.

Re: The Troubling Economics of Food Halls

#30

Post by ghaff » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #24

I've literally never seen one of these - are they the new thing? Sounds like an upscale hipster version of a mall food court. No surprise that owners are looking to hold the vendors over a barrel - everybody sees dollar-signs at being able to capture upscale dollars with "rustic" setting. I mean, we have an indoor farmer's market with eateries in it in my city, and of course it is a popular destination for hipsters.…

>Sounds like an upscale hipster version of a mall food court.

Sort of. Yeah. There are bigger ones that mix in markets, crafts, etc. But there's definitely an increasingly common subset that's entirely or mostly "fast casual" food options catering to an artisanal vibe.

I know a number of ones in NYC. One also opened up relatively recently in Boston near but distinct from the Quincy Market area.