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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a both sides issue. The medical fields moved to complete affirmation of trans identities a while ago because the scientific evidence for trans affirmation is overwhelming -- literally everything from mental health outcomes to surgery regret rates indicates that. The other side is both bigoted and factually wrong .

This is because the sex reseachers with a different view were forced out of their jobs by intense activism.

They were forced out because they put hetero/cisnormative society's interests over their patients'. Their main goal always was to fit their patients into society rather than advocate for society to accept greater gender diversity.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#362
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Yes, the software relativizes the timestamps on a thread while re-upping a submission; see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20169818 . It's confusing but keeping the original timestamps is worse and we've yet to figure out a better way to do it. I suppose this needs to go in the FAQ.)

I don't understand why you don't have banners, on stories that have had editorial changes, to say what the editorial changes are. For example (not suggestions for text) "story reposted with different timestamps", "title changed from 'X is the best thing eva'", "link changed from 'www.superspammy.co.net'", or whatever. Is transparency of editorial actions bad somehow?

tptacek's reply is correct. The other thing is that we try to be careful about not compromising HN's minimalism, which would be so easy to do.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#363
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one got both a software penalty (flamewar detector) and a moderator penalty (similar). But there have been so many submissions about this that it seems there's a community interest in discussing it that is more than just latest-routine-outrage. So we rolled back the clock on this one and put it in the second-chance pool (described at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380 ). Not sure if that was a good id…

Why the moderator penalty? I ask because this is a case of someone being punished for discussing a topic (gender identity and the limits of one’s authority over the speech of others), and then it would seem discussion of the punishment is being suppressed on a second platform (here). Looks almost like “suppress the topic, then suppress the discussion of the suppression.” Got me thinking wow, some people really don’t…

Because hot, flamey, sensational threads are the cheetos of the internet, and if we didn't downweight them they would take over the site and make it a different kind of forum.

On HN we're optimizing for one thing: intellectual curiosity [1, 2]. That means encouraging threads that satisfy that quality, but it also means weeding out most threads that don't satisfy that quality. Most riler-uppers [3] don't. That doesn't mean they aren't important. They have other qualities, just not the one we're optimizing for.

Although this moderation strategy follows from the first principle of the site, it has many tricky aspects. Sometimes there are stories that have both qualities: intellectual interesting as well as rage-inducing or polarizing [4]. In those cases we tend to go by whether the community is able to have a discussion that at least doesn't burst completely into flames. We also consider whether the general topic has been discussed recently, since curiosity withers under repetition.

Sometimes there are stories that don't really gratify intellectual curiosity, but contain such important news that users will submit them over and over again regardless of how much we downweight them. In that case we yield to the community and try, if possible, to consolidate the discussion of that story into one major thread. After that, we downweight reposts until there is significant new information [5].

This StackOverflow story seems to fall somewhere in the overlapping circles of that Venn diagram; it's not devoid of intellectual curiosity (rapidly changing social/political conditions; internet community management; etc.), and it's also something the community seemed determined to discuss (to judge by how often it kept getting reposted). That gave it enough energy to hop into a different orbit than your typical yet-another-angry-dispute would achieve under routine HN moderation.

> Got me thinking wow, some people really don’t want anyone discussing this topic! I wonder why.

When people hear about story X getting moderated, if story X is something they care about, it immediately feels like story X is being singled out for suppression. Then the question arises: why are you censoring X? If you only ask that question about X, it always seems arbitrary and unfair.

From a moderation point of view, though, nothing is singled out—the strategy is systematic. We're basically like snow-ploughs or street-sweeping trucks that do their job every day to clear the roads. If we didn't, the roads would pile up with snow and/or trash, i.e. the site couldn't function as intended. There's never a particular intention to suppress a particular story—on the contrary, to the extent that a story gets particular attention, it's usually to decide whether a penalty should be waived, as in this case.

If you want to understand HN moderation, you need to understand that all this takes place at scale. We make moderation calls like this dozens if not hundreds of times a day, mostly via pattern-matching and heuristics (including in software, when we can figure out how to write code to do it), because there isn't time to do it any other way. Invariably, we guess wrong in many cases, not because the strategy is wrong, but because no systematic strategy can bat 100. Plus there will always be borderline calls, which by definition are arbitrary.

If you still have questions that aren't answered by the above, I'd be interested in hearing what they are.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

2. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

3. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869

5. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the details of the stackexchange case linked above. But, in general, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. The language you are using -- "weaponized pronouns" -- is pretty distorted. If one is aware of how someone prefers to be called and the preference is completely reasonable (such as a trans individual preferring their transitioned pronoun), then one is simply being an asshole by refusing. Not only…

It's a Q&A site, is it stubborn refusal to be decent? It doesn't seem so to me. I don't see how neutrality could possibly be offensive on a gaming or programming sub-site, or dozens of others. Neutral writing is both common and should be inoffensive to all readers, whatever their preferred terms. That's rather the point. That shouldn't affect being able to helpfully answer their esoteric question. I don't expect to f…

I was referring to topic in general, not the specific case from StackExchange.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#366
This sounds like exactly the same slippery slope people were concerned about when Coraline Ehmke's "Contributor Covenant" showed up.

People are starting to get pushed one direction or another, and it might not necessarily be the decision that they really wanted to be pushed.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#367
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the details of the stackexchange case linked above. But, in general, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. The language you are using -- "weaponized pronouns" -- is pretty distorted. If one is aware of how someone prefers to be called and the preference is completely reasonable (such as a trans individual preferring their transitioned pronoun), then one is simply being an asshole by refusing. Not only…

Why would someone, care at that others refer to them (sorry I’m talking about a hypothetical person so I don’t know preferred pronoun) by name or gender neutral? If you know that I prefer to be addresses “their royal highness”(I do btw), does that make it rude of you to refer to me by name or as OP? I get calling someone who prefers he, she is insulting. But that’s not what the supposed crime was here. It was a moder…

I specifically mentioned I wasn't talking about the StackExchange case, just the concept of pronoun usage in general. The comment I replied to seemed to be making a broader statement on this topic, hence my response.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#368
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from the overwhelming negative response to what SO did, I'm confident that I am not the one with the controversial beliefs.

You're seeing what you want to see. The controversy has little to do with that. How SO treated the moderator and handled the issue publicly is what's raising flags. You know, it's possible to support the pronoun policy while still being against how the moderator was treated. It seems to be an opportunistic vocal minority that is trying to make this political.

It is already political. I raised this point to another user - changing policies is political. If by, political you mean dealing with government policy, not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have been making an interesting point, but the "preferred pronoun of the week" bit at the end kind of kills it. Have you ever met someone who changes their gender identity weekly, or asks people to use a derivation-free nonsense word to refer to them?

Yes, they proudly call themselves gender-fluid and state that they change pronouns frequently. And many state to use non-existing words as pronouns such as xhy, requiring a mental effort to remember a new word they invented and also to remember to whom that word is associated, so the satire of using blerg as pronoun is spot-on while also offensive to some.

Ahem. "Blergl," not "blerg." I've expressed a preference for a pronoun, please make the effort to address me in the appropriate manner.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me get this straight: - You meet Gabrielle, and call her Gabbi. - She says "I don't like that nickname, could you use Bree?" - You say, "No, I'm going to call you Gabbi, because you should not expect society to shape itself around coddling your beliefs, GABBI." Honestly, you probably wouldn't do that, right? I mean, maybe you would, but it'd... kind of make you a jerk. It would be a stupid, stupid hill to die…

Pronouns are different from names because there is a very strong correlation between pronouns and certain physical aspects of people.[0] What is being asked of people in the gendering debate is to go against this correlation sometimes. Our minds are built on pattern matching and working with such correlations, so it really shouldn't be a surprise that asking people to go against it is going to tick some of them off:…

"What is being asked of people in the gendering debate is to go against this correlation sometimes."

Yes. Exactly. That's what's being asked of them. To follow someone's request out of courtesy. Again: why is this difficult?

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