It's time to ban cars from Manhattan? • Hacker News Board

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#51

Post by speedplane » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:37 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #22

baron816 wrote: post #20

I was once riding in a cab, ranting about how private cars should be banned in NYC, and the driver spoke up and said that no one who drives in the city wants to drive there—they do it because they have to. They do it because many neighbors within the greater metro area aren’t severed by any form of public transportation.

I'd be interested to see numbers on that (e.g. what percentage of cars are coming from which locations). There are people poorly served by transit, but Manhattan also has a lot of fairly wealthy people driving, or even being chauffeured, on routes that have perfectly usable transit that they'd just rather not use. Car ownership in NYC (45% overall) is much higher among wealthier than poorer people, and especially so…

> Manhattan also has a lot of fairly wealthy people driving, or even being chauffeured, on routes that have perfectly usable transit that they'd just rather not use.

The classicist subtext you allude to above has no place in NYC transportation policy, and will likely make inequality worse. If you want to make the rich pay their fair share, then raise income or wealth taxes. A multi-millionaire won't be fazed by a $10 congestion surcharge, they'll keep driving their Hummer directly through midtown. But the commuters from Queens or Staten Island, the senior citizens that can't easily walk down subway steps, the families car-pooling their children to different activities, and the countless businesses that need to lug equipment and supplies around the city will feel the pain.

Perversely, congestion pricing will probably benefit the rich. It will clear the streets of folks that can no longer afford to drive, making their Hummer joy ride through mid-town much more pleasurable.

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#52

Post by acd » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:39 AM UTC

I think cars should be banned from most densely populated city centers in general. There is a word describing it "Pedestrianization"

Reasoning: Cars pollute the air which makes the people living and walking in the city centers sick. Cars pollute with noise. Cars cause pedestrian and bicycle accidents.

Its nice for peoples health to be able to walk and run in open areas.

Streets which previously was used by cars can be converted to public green areas and you can also plant trees there. It would open up new green areas for cafes and restaurants.

Public transport should replace cars in such dense environments. You will thus ride to the outer part of the city park your car there and take public / electric bike transport from there.

Here is story about Spanish city Pontevedra which banned cars https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/sep/18/paradise-life...

Wikipedia article about Pontevedra, "Pedestrianization" section "As a result, 65% of trips in the city centre are made on foot. Pontevedra was recognized in 2016 as one of the 15 best cycling cities in the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontevedra

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#53

Post by inferiorhuman » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:41 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #41

inferiorhuman wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet if you ran the stats, you would be far more likely to be a victim of crime on bart than while driving in the bay area. Then run the numbers instead of wildly waving your hands. If you'd like anecdotes I've never been robbed at gunpoint on BART, nor have I ever had anyone threaten to stab me on BART. The only disadvantages of driving are traffic and parking. And air pollution, risk of a crash or injury, cost of…

It's very frustrating to discuss this topic with you because you keep editing your comments after I've replied to them. This makes it appear as though I've ignored points you made, when in fact they simply weren't in the version of the comment that I read. Of all the links you added, most are criminals shooting each other or cops shooting criminals. Neither of those are likely to affect me, as I don't rob places or b…

Also, you had to go back 5 years to find some of those results.

Last I checked this is 2019 which means I went back 1 year to 2018 and barely scratched the surface. In fact that one wreck with the taxi happened this week. Everyone died.

In that same time BART had thousands of thefts, around a thousand robberies, hundreds of violent assaults, and around a half dozen homicides.

And how many fender benders, DUIs, random Tesla mishaps, overturned big rigs, etc. have there been in that time? How many pedestrians have been injured or killed? How many cars have been broken into or vandalized (I know property crime isn't much of an issue in San Francisco)?

Considering how much lower the ridership of BART is compared to all commuters in the bay area, those aren't great odds.

BART is the second most used transit system behind Muni. Somewhere around 500,000 daily riders versus 750,000 for Muni. That's not a particularly small proportion of commuters.

Meanwhile the Bay Area has just about the worst traffic in the nation, and somehow you want me to believe that being stuck in traffic isn't stressful? Okay then.

https://abc7news.com/traffic/bay-area-leads-nation-in-commut...

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/08/22/bay-area-commut...

Edit: Oh gosh I forgot about this

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/24/daly-city-police-sear...

Or if you want to go all the way back to 2017 (5 carjackings in 2 days):

https://patch.com/california/san-francisco/5-carjackings-2-d...

And this one:

https://sfist.com/2019/09/19/carjacking-suspect-caught-richm...

But if YOU'VE never encountered this it must not happen, right?

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#54

Post by maelito » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:42 AM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #20

I was once riding in a cab, ranting about how private cars should be banned in NYC, and the driver spoke up and said that no one who drives in the city wants to drive there—they do it because they have to. They do it because many neighbors within the greater metro area aren’t severed by any form of public transportation.

Paris is an interesting example. Car trips have a - listening to the radio

- smoke freely

- don't share a ride with "the poors" in the bus or metro

This need, this "have to" must be defined. It hides serious things and ridiculous ones.

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#55

Post by thawaway1837 » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

andybp85 wrote: post #38

This sounds like it would suck big time for musicians and the like who have to transport gear to bars and whatnot, which I've done plenty of times since high school (I live just outside the city in NJ). Having to carry all my gear like 10 NYC blocks (or more) after having to pay tens of dollars to park in a garage (what would availability even be?) would definitely make me think twice about trying to get gigs there.…

“No street would need to be completely cut off from vehicular traffic; emergency services could get through and transport for the disabled, just as they do in places like Ghent, Belgium, where the city center has been car-free since 2017.”

Every street is still accessible by car. You simply wouldn’t want to go on the pedestrian streets until you absolutely have to because like in car free European cities today, you’d be intermingling with pedestrians with a speed limit of like 5mph.

You’d simply drive the vast majority of the way on the car streets, and then the last 20-30m on the 5mph street so you can take your stuff up to your doorstep.

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#56

Post by afarrell » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:45 AM UTC

acd wrote: post #52

I think cars should be banned from most densely populated city centers in general. There is a word describing it "Pedestrianization" Reasoning: Cars pollute the air which makes the people living and walking in the city centers sick. Cars pollute with noise. Cars cause pedestrian and bicycle accidents. Its nice for peoples health to be able to walk and run in open areas. Streets which previously was used by cars can b…

What does someone do if they twist their ankle badly and are on crutches for a month?

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#57

Post by nightfly » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:47 AM UTC

acd wrote: post #52

I think cars should be banned from most densely populated city centers in general. There is a word describing it "Pedestrianization" Reasoning: Cars pollute the air which makes the people living and walking in the city centers sick. Cars pollute with noise. Cars cause pedestrian and bicycle accidents. Its nice for peoples health to be able to walk and run in open areas. Streets which previously was used by cars can b…

Even if you ban regular cars you're still gonna have to deal with commercial/emergency vehicles (ambulances, moving vans, delivery trucks for local businesses.

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#58

Post by Freak_NL » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:47 AM UTC

Can the title be amended to reflect that of the linked article? That is, please drop the nonsensical question mark.

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#59

Post by kachnuv_ocasek » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:48 AM UTC

nightfly wrote: post #57

acd wrote: post #52

I think cars should be banned from most densely populated city centers in general. There is a word describing it "Pedestrianization" Reasoning: Cars pollute the air which makes the people living and walking in the city centers sick. Cars pollute with noise. Cars cause pedestrian and bicycle accidents. Its nice for peoples health to be able to walk and run in open areas. Streets which previously was used by cars can b…

Even if you ban regular cars you're still gonna have to deal with commercial/emergency vehicles (ambulances, moving vans, delivery trucks for local businesses.

Of which there are orders of magnitude fewer, though.

Re: It's time to ban cars from Manhattan?

#60

Post by _delirium » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:50 AM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #51

_delirium wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to see numbers on that (e.g. what percentage of cars are coming from which locations). There are people poorly served by transit, but Manhattan also has a lot of fairly wealthy people driving, or even being chauffeured, on routes that have perfectly usable transit that they'd just rather not use. Car ownership in NYC (45% overall) is much higher among wealthier than poorer people, and especially so…

> Manhattan also has a lot of fairly wealthy people driving, or even being chauffeured, on routes that have perfectly usable transit that they'd just rather not use. The classicist subtext you allude to above has no place in NYC transportation policy, and will likely make inequality worse. If you want to make the rich pay their fair share, then raise income or wealth taxes. A multi-millionaire won't be fazed by a $10…

The proposal in the linked article isn't a congestion charge, but to just pedestrianize many roads in Manhattan. I agree with you that congestion charges aren't an ideal solution for a bunch of reasons, one being that affluent people can just pay their $10 and drive through, as you note. Another problem with them is that congestion charges don't really make roads safe for non-automobile road users, in the way that pedestrianization does.

What annoys me personally about rich Manhattan types with cars is mostly their political influence. Fewer than a quarter of Manhattanites own cars, but the ones that do have historically been disproportionately well connected in local Democratic machine politics.