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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...if someone has an onerous or complicated preferred pronoun, that person is rude and can't expect others to comply or remember. To the extent that there is any controversy here, it's in this guideline. I'd just soften 'rude' to unreasonable. 1. I have not seen any code of conduct make room for this scenario. It's taken as a given that pronoun preferences are reasonable. 2. Some people think singular 'they' and 't…

You cannot compel people to talk in a certain way. To do so is totalitarian and evil.

If we work in the same place and if I consistently and intentionally call you a different name than your actual name, I'm harassing you, I'm bullying you, and if the place we work at has decent HR policies, I will get fired.

So I am absolutely compelled to call you your actual name, I'm compelled to talk in a certain way if I want to keep my job, and this isn't totalitarian or evil, it's simply having manners and treating each other with respect.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because they will be misgendered day in and day out for the rest of their life. If someone believes they are being gangstalked, society doesn't modify itself to ensure no one within 500 meters of them has a predictable schedule. That's no good reason to go out of your way to misgender someone or pretend to stalk someone who has that phobia. Yes, there will be problems interacting with society overall, I have no goo…

> But I do know that knowingly and actively hurting people "because society does it too" when you could trivially avoid it is reprehensible My argument isn't "do it because society does it too", it's we already have systems in place to give people the therapeutic treatment they need to get past issues like this, which are issues, because it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's…

> it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's beliefs

What indication do you have that a majority of the "society" in question (Stack Overflow) has a problem with addressing people in the manner they prefer?

In other words, have you considered the possibility that you are the one with an opinion or belief that runs contrary to what this "society" expects of its members?

If so, are you expecting to be coddled?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#313
post #294

-542 before it was locked. That's incredible. People are really really afraid to talk about this particular topic (which they don't mention in the statement), because this type of call-out to be banned happens a lot. The book "The Coddling of the American Mind" is an amazing book that documents how this is happening in academia, and it's happening on the software world too. Most people in our industry, in the US, EU…

> People are really really afraid to talk about this particular topic I don't understand how you can say that when we have this huge HN thread (and it's interesting to see who is being downvoted here) and the huge SE threads spread out across the sites.

Getting banned from HN or some other website is way different than getting fired. I'd talk about this sort of stuff here all day long and shut the fuck up at work about anything political.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of special pronouns as names. All the etiquette we have surrounding names apply equally to pronouns. It's not expected to remember someone's name if you've only met them briefly, but the more you've interacted with the person, the more embarrassing not remembering their name becomes. Mis-naming someone intentionally, repeatedly, is rude and quickly moves into harassment territory. But the flipside is also true,…

> ...if someone has an onerous or complicated preferred pronoun, that person is rude and can't expect others to comply or remember. To the extent that there is any controversy here, it's in this guideline. I'd just soften 'rude' to unreasonable. 1. I have not seen any code of conduct make room for this scenario. It's taken as a given that pronoun preferences are reasonable. 2. Some people think singular 'they' and 't…

> To the extent that there is any controversy here, it's in this guideline. I'd just soften 'rude' to unreasonable.

Yes. There's a lot of grey area here. I personally don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to use 'he', 'she', or 'they' regardless of how someone presents themselves.

And I do think it's unreasonable to ask people to use 'xe' and 'hir' except every odd Tuesday when it's 'xim' and 'phe'.

At least recognizing that there is a grey area is better than sticking to the extremes. Rejecting the outlandish pronouns doesn't make you a transphobe bigot, you can't expect everyone to bow to your slightest whims, and accepting that some people prefer different pronouns to what they present as won't dissolve society, and it's not fascism to ask people to respect each other.

> I honestly wish some people would decide that this whole thing is too complicated to legislate completely and institute some sort of jury system, at least on appeal, to decide what counts as reasonable.

I think we're already doing pretty ok with names, without any formal system.

"I'm John!"

"Ok, John."

"I'm Sir Master Kensington Fuckbuttery Waddlesworth III Jr!"

"No, you're Kenny."

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a top-3 culture war issue because it gives a perfect wedge. Gay marriage is lost as that issue, that was the next one theofascists latched on. (It's the same reason state legislatures are so very much concerned with gendered bathrooms these days) It is deliberately stoked time and again because it specifically fires up a large conservative base, and is life-threatening to a small group. As a bonus point for t…

Are you seriously equating misgendering someone with killing them?

The poster was likely referring to the astronomical rates of suicide among trans people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/09/1...

Obviously, misgendering someone is not likely to be the thing that triggers such an act. But it is part of a pattern of bullying and general disregard that transgendered people face every single day.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes i consider myself lucky that i don't know anyone seeking special pronouns - because i imagine i would repeatedly use what i visually see, not what they request. These days i seek to find a gender neutral word i can get into the habit of using (it, or they, or something similar) , for fear of mis-nouning someone. Though, i also have the fear that if i use something neutral, when someone requested a specific…

Think of special pronouns as names. All the etiquette we have surrounding names apply equally to pronouns. It's not expected to remember someone's name if you've only met them briefly, but the more you've interacted with the person, the more embarrassing not remembering their name becomes. Mis-naming someone intentionally, repeatedly, is rude and quickly moves into harassment territory. But the flipside is also true,…

The use of hurtful nicknames in the workplace can indeed be considered harassment in the eyes of the law and/or polite society.

That being said, not sure pronouns are indistinguishable from names. As a species, we evolved sexual dimorphism alongside a visual apparatus to detect the dimorphism. We are able to tell a male from a female at a glance with high accuracy, even in presence of elaborated disguises. Being asked to call someone we perceive as male "her", or someone we perceive as female "him" is often times difficult. The pronoun is not an arbitrary tag detached from perception, visual or linguistic. Picture a couple more situations:

* A 6ft bearded hulking person insisting to be referred as "she".

* A person insisting that their name is "Susan", but that we should refer to them as "he".

Plenty of people would have to make an explicit effort to comply with such requests, beyond what's required for remembering the mere name/pronoun tag.

Online, we interact with a huge number of people, possibly only for a few brief moments. Most of us simply use the name tag under our eyes, and infer the pronouns using linguistic clues. For example, most people would use "he" to refer to u/henrikschroder. For name tags with less obvious genders, most people would default to gender neutral. Taking offense at people using an inferred pronoun when no other information is readily in sight is akin taking offense at HN readers that don't read the linked article before commenting. Nobody has time to click links on the Internet.

As a culture, we'd do well to stop catastrophising and taking offense at people minding their own business and not being hyper-aware of everyone else's special circumstances.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot compel people to talk in a certain way. To do so is totalitarian and evil.

If we work in the same place and if I consistently and intentionally call you a different name than your actual name, I'm harassing you, I'm bullying you, and if the place we work at has decent HR policies, I will get fired. So I am absolutely compelled to call you your actual name, I'm compelled to talk in a certain way if I want to keep my job, and this isn't totalitarian or evil, it's simply having manners and tre…

Agreed entirely with this. But it's also just an evolving social norm that these HR rules are based on. (As a few generations back, I assume, males got away with maybe calling their female colleagues "missy".) So, with that, I'm just curious where the average HR stands on pronouns.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#318

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to. The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some wor…

Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#319

Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…

Just wanted to point out something you may not be aware of. I was confused about this which is why I feel the need to mention it - since my first instinct was to assume this mod was in the wrong.

The first discussions of this issue, from a few days ago, made it seem as if the moderator in question opposed a preferred pronoun policy. On further reading about this, the moderator claims that she doesn't oppose a preferred pronoun policy and would not misgender someone, but rather, wanted to clarify whether she could continue to use pronoun-neutral language as she does this out of custom anyway.

At least in my mind, if what the mod is saying is true (and a few other people have backed her up on her account), not only wasn't she opposing the standard preferred-pronoun policy most people are familiar with, she wasn't even opposing anything but rather asking legitimate "edge case" questions to help clarify a policy before it is decided on.

(SE hasn't really given concrete details at the moment about why she was fired, so it's entirely possible the mod did something else problematic, though again, her account seems to be backed up by other mods).

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the problem is when this rule broke down When did this rule break down, in your opinion? When has a society ever fully agreed amongst themselves? There’s certainly not a moment in American history that qualifies, and I doubt you’d find much simultaneous global peace in world history too. It’s never really existed. There’s actually a fairly compelling argument against the golden rule, often referred to as the platin…

I'll be honest, I don't find the Platinum Rule at all a compelling argument against the Golden Rule. There are many cases of people in power claiming that their behavior is what the other person "really" wants (such as women "really" want to be treated poorly, or the slaves really prefer subservience as it's their destined station in life). And who am I to be able to speak about what someone else wants? It's a full t…

> such as women "really" want to be treated poorly

This depends how you define “poorly”. Some progressives would say all sex work is harmful to women. Some sex workers who are women would ask how you dare try to rob them of their agency.

It’s not that simple.

> or the slaves really prefer subservience as it's their destined station in life

Again, this depends on how you define “slavery”. To some, all factory workers are slaves in an evil Capitalist machine, subservient to the guy with the capital; all the guy did was start the company, right? But to the factory worker, he might be very happy with the opportunity to work and provide for his family, and for a multitude of reasons might prefer this to whatever else a typical Socialist might believe all people should want to do with their time.

It’s not that simple.

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