The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#81

Post by walshemj » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #26

Aloha wrote: post #9

I'm skeptical that the labor differential is as big as this article implies frankly. This strike is pretty straightforward in cause, GM wants to pay less, and wants their employees to cover more of their healthcare costs, the Union isnt okay with this. Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement - and while the transition to electric cars may slightly reduce…

> Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement Is it? I've watched a lot of modern car assembly line videos and it doesn't seem to be hard or backbreaking at all. Boring and tedious? Sure, here's one for GM's best selling vehicle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nr3I-Fddv8 At no point do you see anyone lift something heavy without the assistance of overhead…

As opposed to mining or ground work (navying)

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#82

Post by ericmay » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

chillacy wrote: post #72

ericmay wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A scenario would be something like you and your entire family live somewhere, and you make a good income that allows you to have a decent life, and now that income stream is gone and you’re expected to retrain after who knows how long to “learn 2 code” and then somehow get another high-paying job. What go back to college? A coding boot camp? Uproot you’re family to move to San Francisco and compete with 20 year old k…

Something like Venture for America?

First time hearing about it. But we also target more than just students/recent graduates. I also don’t think they have a presence in our region, but I could be wrong.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#83

Post by bdamm » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #25

mfer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take away people’s ability to provide for themselves and their families you’re bound to make enemies and that’s due to hurting people. It says a lot about what one calls progress I would suggest helping those people move on to something else that enables them to care for their families. It’ll make change far more palatable and is better for people

What would be concrete actions that enable someone in their late forties or early fifties to find a new job when the whole industry they've worked in so far basically disappears? Say someone working at a coal plant, or someone assembling ICEs? Who will hire them?

For a while call centers were popping up in the wake of factory shutdowns.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#84

Post by robocat » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

chronotis wrote: post #62

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

Bringing this point back closer to home: I've been a "software professional" of one shape or another for over 20 years now. In my case, that's come with a never-ending need to constantly retool: new languages, new SDKs, new device types, new APIs, etc., etc. I'm sure this sounds familiar. There are a LOT of jobs out there that don't have any continuing education requirement, or where the idea of learning some new com…

> In my case, that's come with a never-ending need to constantly retool: new languages, new SDKs, new device types, new APIs, etc., etc.

I think over time those things are not as significant as the changes in disciplines (titles?) or verticals. E.g. Changing from an embedded SE to front end UX is more difficult than the languages or tools involved.

Edit: is it harder to retrain from front end to embedded? I've traveled the ≈embedded to ≈ux road (via ≈applications). From ≈employee land to ≈owner land.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#85

Post by gurumeditations » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

This is why people like Peter Thiel have compounds on island nations like New Zealand. Economists say we’re in the midst of a long and painful transition between the old manufacturing economy and... something. The question is, are we going to inch closer to an ideal socialist utopia where everyone has more or less everything because production is so cheap (like in Star Trek), or towards a capitalist dystopia where the Thiels of the world hoard everything in a progressively smaller elite fraction of the population.

I’d be very interested to see what China does. 1+ billion people. Do they leave them without jobs? Legally mandate manufacturing to include vast human employment? 100s of millions of people without a purpose will not end well. Just look at the Middle East. People will fight hardest when the stakes are so low. We’ve already got Trump in the US, BJ in the U.K. What will we get next as human labor becomes less and less necessary?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#86

Post by baby » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

Sounds like what Andrew Yang has been saying over and over. I wish the main candidates would steal from his ideas.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#87

Post by thephyber » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #49

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

Putting entire communities or indeed entire regions on welfare for the rest of their life smacks of unintended consequences later on.

It's already happened. Disability insurance is the de facto implementation of this.

It leads to judges corrupting their own judgement to allow workers who probably aren't disabled to get onto the disability roles, it's a ratchet where once on permanent disability, an employee can no longer legally get a job again, it's almost certainly a downsizing in wages and quality of life expectations, and it leads to depression, higher suicide rates, and high rates of opioid abuse.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#88

Post by noobermin » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

It's ironic they mention Germany because Germany's system has very strong unions, with labor representation on their boards, but as they said, the pivot is happening there and there isn't the same anxiety there apparently. It's not like working together isn't possible with people not losing their jobs.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#89

Post by chillacy » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #47

kennywinker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even coming from a place of no empathy for displaced workers lives, if we hang these people out to dry we will pay the price down the line. If america had invested in a social safety net for the past 30-40 years, we might be in a different place. People would be ok with change because they'd know that society was going to have their back while they find a new career.

> if we hang these people out to dry we will pay the price down the line. If we continue promoting industries that cause the global climate to worsen more rapidly, we're going to pay a MUCH bigger price down the line. Taking jobs from folks who work in such an industry is a price worth paying, considering the alternative.

> Taking jobs from folks who work in such an industry is a price worth paying, considering the alternative.

I don't think that's worked out very well so far. America is polarized on economic lines, and as long as some people's interests are unaligned with the environment / global needs, then this will continue.

The way you actually remove these jobs for good is to change the incentives for these workers so that they benefit from the new order.

This is why I think elements of the Green New Deal are a good idea: because it says that these folks have an even better future with green jobs than the present.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#90

Post by ianai » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #53

ako wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why socialism has such a bad rap. The opposite is asocialism (a society based on "avoiding social interaction; inconsiderate of or hostile to others."), which can't be good for any society.

Socialism has a bad rap because it comes with a monetary cost. The powers that influence and control legislature today are foremost interested in personal profits - policies that improve society but cost money to do are uninteresting to such parties because, by the nature of them controlling most of the money, most of the funding for such programs would have to be taken from them. Its financially beneficial to use co…

It’s also a false dichotomy. Government has never considered its income when figuring its expenses. That’s just a rhetorical trick politicians use to say they don’t want to do something that’s otherwise popular.

The Cold War is definitely why the S word is so reviled.