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China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

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Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#481
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be cool to make a system where the train could drop off tailing cars and redirect them to stops, and pick up new cars which are accelerated to a matched speed and then linked, removing need for the train to fully decelerate at intermediate stops.

A similar system could drop off middle cars...

Good point! You could have engines on the front and back cars, approaching a stop could make trailing cars apply slight breaking to create separation between them when going over 'router' tracks, allowing leave the train and new cars to enter in the gaps, then back engine could accelerate gradually to unify the train before switching main power back to front car.

This would be really fun to watch in action.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#482
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate the fact that an autocratic and repulsive Government The Chinese government is much more autocratic yet it obviously does a much better job in building infrastructure The problem with the US government is lobbyism. It does not work for itself, it does not work for the people, it works for big corporations and lawyers.

China is a communist country, one impact being that the government owns all property. For example, individuals lease/rent their homes but the terra firma is the peoples'. If the Chinese government wants to put a train line where houses, farms, or offices used to be, they do it. One, because they already own the land. And two, the faster goods and services can move, the faster the economy can grow. Not an advocate for…

I think this is probably the primary factor.

There's a reason the autocratic government in Civilization has classically been the most efficient one in the ruleset for military and infrastructure buildout. Having to get consensus is slow and error-prone. Decentralized decision-making is effective at preserving a status quo while making minor tweaks, but not so great for changing a status quo radically.

I think the US has major infrastructure changes pinned largely to wartime, 20s Depression, and other extraordinary events that gave the government unusual flexibility.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#483

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

as someone who lives on the other side of the US from family members this is incredibly depressing.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jerry Brown tried to build the CA bullet train 4 decades ago. Amusing to me he did the Rip Van Winkle and popped up as Governor again after 30 years. In office he pushed hard to get CHSR built. Every time California's high speed rails come up on HN it's obvious that everyone here hates the idea. So the US is getting what it's collectively asking for and deserves here.

We hate the idea of a "high speed" rail that connects 15 central valley "cities", but I'm all for San Francisco to San Jose to LA without other stops.

> "cities"

Take a drive down HWY99 instead of I5 sometime.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy Chinese people can't control what the country does, wealthy Americans certainly have the option if they wanted.

Interestingly enough, the collective net worth of the Chinese leadership is higher than the US leadership by at least an order of magnitude. > The richest 70 members of China’s legislature added more to their wealth last year than the combined net worth of all 535 members of the U.S. Congress, the president and his Cabinet, and the nine Supreme Court justices. > The net worth of the 70 richest delegates in China’s Na…

Yeah, and to think the power a delegate in China's legislature have, you're asked to be a delegate and you show up to a meeting ONCE every 5 year, and rubber stamp 90% of proposals while rejecting 10% of absolutely batshit crazy stuff that some other delegate happened to suggest. Incidentally, everything submitted by the CCP magically falls under that 90% camp, with 2 known exception in the 70 years history of China. Yeah, that's a whole lot of power right there, you got me mate.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were built before environmental regulation was implemented, the same as the US interstate system. None of those could be built today as cheaply or easily as pre-1970s. If at all.

Looking at the dates when the high speed lines (AVE) were opened in Spain [1], save for one (1992), all the rest were opened after 2003, and most were opened in the last decade. France keeps extending their network too... Same with other countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE#Lines_in_operation

Then I have a misunderstanding of EU regulation on the matter. Is it entirely new right of way construction or upgrades?

In the US the last giant scale build-out was permitted before the EPA or Army Corps of Engineers had any regulatory teeth on the matter. Most projects since have been lane additions or incremental extensions. Loops have been built, but are politically easier since they only need to make one metro area happy. There's only been a handful of "new" interstates built since then (at a substantially higher cost). Much of the originally planned interstate system (that was to be a later phase) just never got built.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#487

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

> So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing.

The US is a country of checks and balances. Viewed differently, it's easy to obstruct changes. On average this works well, as it's far more likely for any random change to be bad rather than good. The unfortunate side effect is that many good changes don't happen, because it's so difficult to overcome all the "checks and balances".

In an authoritarian regime, changes edicted from the top encounter very little opposition. In post-Mao China, lots of these changes were wise, but not all. In the majority of the authoritarian regimes though the story is a bit less rosy.

Can we have our cake (checks and balances) and eat it too (more good changes get done) ? That's a tough question, I personally don't have the answer. But it seems more likely that once China builds a larger network of high-speed rail, the US would get some type of competitive impulse, and start investing in this too. One can only hope ...

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#488

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

> I took the train once from Irvine to Los Angeles and felt I had gone back in time to 1980.

That's what California gets for electing governors George Deukmejian. Pete Wilson, Gray Davis, and Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#489

So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is the world's largest economy and should be the shining example of amazing infrastructure, high-tech, green cities, and forward thinking policies. California is an especially egregious example in terms of infrastructure investment: If California was a country it would be the world's fifth…

> So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is a country of checks and balances. Viewed differently, it's easy to obstruct changes. On average this works well, as it's far more likely for any random change to be bad rather than good. The unfortunate side effect is that many good changes don't happen, because it's so difficult to o…

You're assuming HSR is a "good" decision versus the alternatives, but who's to say it is?

Further down this thread is a link to this video called, "Why is China so good at building railways?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JDoll8OEFE

The presenter and quite a few commenters seem to have a built-in bias towards rail. Don't get me wrong. I love a good train journey and prefer it to flying when it's competitive. But the video tries to be an optimistic take on what a cold eye could only describe as totally mad and dysfunctional government.

The situation according to the video can be summed up like this:

• China has built tons of high speed rail very fast, this is amazing!

• But they do it because their internal airlines suck incredibly badly.

• There are only three carriers, none of which are budget. Planes are on time only about 65% of the time, which is a staggeringly low figure. The cause is enormous congestion in the air leading to air traffic control frequently denying takeoff rights.

• This bizarre situation occurs because the Chinese Army controls almost all the airspace above China and refuses to let civilian flights anywhere except a few corridors.

• Rather than get the army under control and open up flying to competition, China decided to build tons of railways instead.

• These railways are all heavily subsidised. Theoretically some in the east are profitable, but this is more than offset by railways built along totally unviable routes. For one route the ticket sales don't even cover the cost of electricity, let alone construction debt.

• Because HSR requires long straight lines without sharp curves, HSR railway stations are often as far away from city centres as airports are (France has this problem too). That eliminates one major advantage of rail over flying.

The Chinese taxpayer is forced to pay for these economically insane projects because it's all a part of Beijing's control (or oppression) of Xinjiang and Tibet.

For vague and to me inexplicable reasons, Beijing thinks building expensive and slow railway lines between outer region cities that don't have much travel demand will somehow prevent rebellions. The logic of this is not elaborated in the video, but it's hard not to assume the railways are intended for future military use if there's a need to move lots of troops into these regions.

Now let's compare this to America, which according to Hacker News consensus is some terrible backwater in comparison.

America has perhaps the world's best domestic airline network. Competition is intense, prices are low, travel times are very low, planes travel freely in huge quantities and the airlines are (sorta) profitable without taxpayer subsidies.

America also has an extensive and heavily used railway network, but it's used for freight rather than passengers. This makes sense for all kinds of physical and economic reasons.

HSR doesn't really exist in America, but this isn't because American society is dysfunctional. It's because the massive subsidies and land clearance required are hard to justify when you have an excellent flight network, which operates just fine. Take away "suppress rebellion" and "the military causes 40% of flights to be delayed" as motivating reasons and suddenly the US decisions don't look so bad. Those checks and balances seem to be working out pretty well.

Re: China laying tracks for 1,000km/h maglev trains

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, as someone that lived in New York for 6 years and California for 6 years, stories like this are incredibly depressing. The US is a country of checks and balances. Viewed differently, it's easy to obstruct changes. On average this works well, as it's far more likely for any random change to be bad rather than good. The unfortunate side effect is that many good changes don't happen, because it's so difficult to o…

You're assuming HSR is a "good" decision versus the alternatives, but who's to say it is? Further down this thread is a link to this video called, "Why is China so good at building railways?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JDoll8OEFE The presenter and quite a few commenters seem to have a built-in bias towards rail. Don't get me wrong. I love a good train journey and prefer it to flying when it's competitive. But t…

Whatever baggage China had, France and Japan didn't, and they are criss-crossed with high speed rail. A flight from Paris to Marseille takes 1:20h and starts from $133 and a TGV takes 3:09 and starts from $35 [1]. I would take the train any time.

I personally take the train even if the comparison is not that clear cut. Recently I travelled with Acela from NYC to Boston for journey time of about 4h. The flight time would only be 1:05, but considering the security wait time and the airport to city center time, you'd probably end up around 3-4 hours depending on luck. Oh, and luck is what you don't want do depend if you can avoid it.

Unfortunately, Acela is an HSR only in name. But allow one to dream that Acela could run at 200mp (like the Shinkansen or TGV) and extended all the way to Miami. That would be about 6:15h travel time vs 3h for the flight time. Many, many people would take the train without blinking.

Not sure if we should start talking CO2 emissions, where I feel the airplanes don't stand a chance.

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Marseille,+France/Paris,+Fra...

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