Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#231

Post by rileymat2 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 1:59 AM UTC

nsuser3 wrote: post #226

rileymat2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But using it is applying math, so yes you could make its application illegal, says devil’s advocate because I am pro encryption.

Smarter bad actors could still do it without being detected. Hiding an encrypted message in unsuspicious messages isn't that difficult. I really don't see the point of having such a law.

Back to Devil's Advocate, You could say that about most laws, people breaking them will find more clever ways to avoid getting caught. The fact that you can be more clever, does not mean it should be legal.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#232

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 4:52 AM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#233

Post by NuSkooler » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 5:37 AM UTC

gnode wrote: post #186

NuSkooler wrote: post #159

The short answer: "None of your god damn business", which is the point. The only counterpoint to end-to-end is "we want to be able to access your private conversations", which isn't really a counterpoint unless you agree with spying on citizens and would like to also allow the government to come into your house and place listening devices as they please, listen to your phone calls whenever they please, open up your m…

> Hell, actually require you to wear a device at all times so all conversations can be recorded. The government could similarly demand backdoors into people's private devices, so people can be listened to and their usage of the device recorded, in case they might be up to no good. I see essentially no moral difference between banning E2EE and banning security of devices. If you have no right to communicate secretly w…

Exactly

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#234

Post by jonathanstrange » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:43 AM UTC

criddell wrote: post #192

jonathanstrange wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a law would serve no reasonable purpose, though. Criminals can use one-time pads and it's also not hard to make a little encryption program based on existing cryptographic primitives. In fact, drug cartels have specialists for that who could probably even develop and implement their own secure-enough Feistel cipher if they wanted to. The only purposes such a law seems to serve is to catch clueless idiots who wil…

Do the telephone wiretap laws serve any reasonable purpose?

Yes, because hardware devices for encrypting phone calls in real-time are not as easy to produce as text encryption software or stick-it notes with random numbers on them.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#235

Post by criddell » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:41 AM UTC

jonathanstrange wrote: post #234

criddell wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the telephone wiretap laws serve any reasonable purpose?

Yes, because hardware devices for encrypting phone calls in real-time are not as easy to produce as text encryption software or stick-it notes with random numbers on them.

What does that have to do with whether or not a wiretap serves a reasonable purpose? Today, it would be incredibly easy for Apple to have encrypted voice calls as well.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#236

Post by Smithalicious » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:50 AM UTC

The argument for privacy measures in general that's very convincing to me personally is imagining yourself as someone important. Imagine you were running for president in opposition to current government policies: would you want the government to have all your texts and emails, your entire browser history, the contents of your harddrive? Even if you've done nothing illegal, immoral or socially unacceptable, certainly you can think of something you've privately said or searched for that could be misconstrued to make you look bad.

In a democratic world, information is power. The more you know about someone, the more there is you can use against them; the more ways there are for you to lie.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#237

Post by alangibson » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

My position is that I have a right to privacy, so I don't need an argument. You need an argument for infringing on my right to privacy.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#238

Post by matt-attack » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

Imagine saying: two people should never be able to whisper to each other. To whisper something to someone prevents the police from having the ability to know if you’re possibly planning to do something dangerous. Something that is dangerous like planning another 911. Or planning to kidnap a child. These are very real possible crimes that affect real people. We must give investigators the tools they need to keep us safe therefore whispering privately should not be permitted.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#239

Post by matt-attack » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

Curious if I choose to publish pictures of myself as a child when I was naked. For example bathtub pictures my parents might have taken, etc. Would I have committed a crime? Who exactly is the victim? I frankly wouldn’t have a problem with it. How does it harm me? I’d even be willing to release naked pictures of my children (suitable anonymized, faces blurred it heads cropped, etc.) Why do I care what a stranger is doing with an image of my kid? Go to town if it’s your thing. Just don’t actually harm real children and you’re fine.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#240

Post by matt-attack » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

lysium wrote: post #90

jdsnape wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this is a great analogy as yes, we permit people to have doors and locks but society also provides a mechanism for the government to lawfully get access to them. If the Police have a legit reason to access a property they go to court and get a warrent, and if they need to they'll kick the door in to get in. The current government requests to be able to access encrypted info with a warrent are an extensio…

Shouldn’t they come to me then and look into my phone instead of constantly looking into my messages on the server? I think the door is a great analogy.

Right. I believe it’s just laziness on their part. If the crime is abusing children, go catch the guys doing the abuse. If you’re worried someone is in possession of illegal materials go get a warrant and search their home/computer, etc.