Pricing niche products • Hacker News Board

Re: Pricing niche products

#261

Post by christiansakai » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #245

phjesusthatguy3 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff. SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire. EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I…

I've never seen a keyboard enthusiast claim that the results of their typing are superior to the results of typing on a cheap keyboard. They prefer the experience, or the aesthetics, but don't generally make falsifiable claims about objective facts. If you want to spend money on speaker wire because it looks good, and fits your room decor, or glows, fine. If you think the results sound better, you deserve all the moc…

LMAO

Re: Pricing niche products

#262

Post by cbhl » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #245

phjesusthatguy3 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff. SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire. EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I…

I've never seen a keyboard enthusiast claim that the results of their typing are superior to the results of typing on a cheap keyboard. They prefer the experience, or the aesthetics, but don't generally make falsifiable claims about objective facts. If you want to spend money on speaker wire because it looks good, and fits your room decor, or glows, fine. If you think the results sound better, you deserve all the moc…

For what it's worth, the first keyboard enthusiast I met in college claimed that their code was better as a result of all the clicky noises it made.

Re: Pricing niche products

#263

Post by cr0sh » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #191

katet wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in case this strikes anyone as dismissive, I too sincerely miss the old, beige keyboards that used to come with things like the old IBM, Tiny, MiTac, and Amiga brands I scavenged as a teenager. And those things were _robust_ - you could strip them down, soak them in detergent overnight, and have them good as new the next day without key caps falling off or the space bar sticking.

You don't have to miss them, go on ebay, there's an entire hobby around vintage keyboards too. You can get adapters that enable you to use them on a modern system. Those things were built like tanks and sometimes you can get them for a good price. Some of them are worth hundreds, but people still find them all the time at flea markets and yard sales for a few dollars.

If you dig around on Ebay, you'll find a ton of various kinds of Model M buckling spring keyboards for fairly decent prices; usually starting at around $50 USD. You might have to do some cleaning, but that's fairly easy.

You'll also find a ton of "specialized" Model M and other IBM keyboards that were designed for certain tasks - tons of extra function keys and strange layouts.

What you have to avoid (or look for) is to make sure they aren't the "silent rubber dome" kind - there were many Model M keyboards that used cheaper (but quieter) switches. Or that might be what you want. They are still (usually) good keyboards with a lot of life left in 'em - but if you want the real sound and experience, then buckling springs are where it's at. I haven't been able to find another kind of mechanical keyboard outside the Unicomp that comes close (and the Unicomp is a identical beast - I own one and two other original Model M keyboards - they all feel the same).

There are also a lot of different kinds and makes/models of the Model M - and then you have the whole Lexmark series of Model M (and the various different IBM logo labeling).

One of my Model M keyboards is a bit unique from what I understand: It's a Lexmark, with the blue tilted IBM logo in the corner, but it has the flow-thru slots and tray under the keys. From what I understand, Lexmark supposedly didn't make the flow-thru model. I don't know if mine is a unicorn, or if the collector market is confused or what; I suspect the latter.

Oh - one other thing: Connectors. The Model M was made with a variety of cable end connectors, and is another thing you have to look out for. You may have to rewire or buy/build an adapter (and it wouldn't surprise me to find that there were also different controllers in the keyboard itself, not all being able to communicate with a regular PC).

Re: Pricing niche products

#264

Post by anarchodev » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #223

anarchodev wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think the original parent post was a more emotionally reactionary than this response. Yeah, it could be the case that mechanical keyboard enthusiasts are all virtue-signaling snobs chasing clout on the internet... or it could be that some people just enjoy the things? And want to share their cool things? It could be that the community hivemind has decided on an orthodoxy and aggressively judges anyone who…

I've put together a number of fairly expensive keyboards ($700+) and I'm embarrassed to tell anyone I know (who sees them on my desk at home) how much they cost. I didn't build them for anyone but myself. My dad thought one of them was really neat looking and was curious how much it cost. I was very reluctant to tell him but he kept asking and obviously was completely shocked when I told him the final cost. He couldn…

For sure, and starting from the assumption that we'd only get these things because they improve our typing is kind of like assuming car collectors only do it to improve their driving. Amusing to watch hackernews reverse-engineer the concept of a hobby from first principles.

I understand it can feel embarrassing to acknowledge the price of your hobbies but ultimately this is your money and you should be spending it on something that makes you happy (after you meet your personal obligations to family, those less fortunate, charities depending on your convictions, etc).

Re: Pricing niche products

#265

Post by phaus » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

qroshan wrote: post #226

lewisflude wrote: post #12

I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.) It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end. Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-pric…

Great professionals (cooks, photographers) will definitely benefit from high-end tools because you get higher control (over craftsmanship), improved productivity etc. For a keyboard, the signal delivered to the computer (the thing that really matters) is the same. It's the same freaking 'A' that gets delivered whether you type in a $1 keyboard or the $2000 keyboard. Most prolific writers or software programmers (for…

It is the same signal, I'm not sure but potentially drivers, microcontrollers, and other things may impact latency though. Not that mechanical keyboard enthusiasts seem to be focused on that.

However, the type of switch you use can have an impact on all kinds of things, the speed at which you can type, the accuracy of your typing, your long term health, etc.

Certain types of switches are also better suited to specific activities. For example, linear switches can usually be pressed faster, which makes them very slightly better for gaming. There are even gaming oriented linear switches that have reduced key travel to further increase speed. The speed impact is going to be near non-noticeable in its impact on game performance for everyone but elite gamers, but anyone is going to be able to tell that certain switches fatigue their hands less than others.

Re: Pricing niche products

#266

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #245

phjesusthatguy3 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff. SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire. EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I…

I've never seen a keyboard enthusiast claim that the results of their typing are superior to the results of typing on a cheap keyboard. They prefer the experience, or the aesthetics, but don't generally make falsifiable claims about objective facts. If you want to spend money on speaker wire because it looks good, and fits your room decor, or glows, fine. If you think the results sound better, you deserve all the moc…

most people who are keyboard enthusiasts justify their enthusiasm because it is faster and more ergonomic, sure they don't say they get better code (although maybe if you're wrists aren't killing you, you do) but they do say they get the code quicker without debilitating physics effects which seems to me to claims that could be falsifiable (given big enough studies) about objective facts.

Re: Pricing niche products

#267

Post by cr0sh » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

equalunique wrote: post #6

It's disappointing how so much money is being poured into "mechanical keyboard kits" that simply re-create the old ANSI/ISO layouts that are rooted in old limitations from the days of the typewriter. Alternate layouts & ortholinear/ergonomic designs should be the forefront of the movement. All this focus on outdated designs makes the community "accessible" but also holds people back. The emergence of row-staggered 40…

There's an entire sub-space of the mechanical keyboard hobby dedicated to custom DIY keyboards.

From what I have seen lately, the focus has been on eliminating the "stagger" of the keys and going more in a grid (but still keeping the mostly QWERTY layout - though some are experimenting with other layouts, too).

You have a few brave souls doing split and ergonomic styles, too. Then you have others who build specialty "keyboards" that are closer in scope to a 10-key with additional do-dads, mostly meant for games or other "macro" tasks (Photoshop and DAWs for instance).

Of course, there's also the people playing with chorded keyboards and such - but they've always have been fairly fringe (seeing as most of the time the purpose of such "keyboards" are for custom AR rigs and other wearable systems).

Re: Pricing niche products

#268

Post by achompas » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

terrellm wrote: post #46

I so want to get into mechnical keyboards but most of my work is done on a 2015 MacBook Pro and I'm so efficient with the large trackpad - I rest my palms on the laptop and can reach everything with just a pivot of the wrist. I tried the Magic Trackpad, but I kept having to move my forearm and it just slowed me down too much. What kind of mouse or trackpad is everyone using with these $xxx - $xxxx keyboards?

I use a trackball next to my keyboard which barely cracks the $100 barrier right now. The trackball won't change when the keyboard does in a few months.

Re: Pricing niche products

#269

Post by cc81 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #262

pwinnski wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen a keyboard enthusiast claim that the results of their typing are superior to the results of typing on a cheap keyboard. They prefer the experience, or the aesthetics, but don't generally make falsifiable claims about objective facts. If you want to spend money on speaker wire because it looks good, and fits your room decor, or glows, fine. If you think the results sound better, you deserve all the moc…

For what it's worth, the first keyboard enthusiast I met in college claimed that their code was better as a result of all the clicky noises it made.

I guess it is possible if the thing is making him happier while developing.

Re: Pricing niche products

#270

Post by phaus » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

Mtinie wrote: post #255

pclark wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the boards and caps are nothing compared to artisan keycaps. i have traded countless things to acquire keycaps that would sell for $250+ each. one keycap! brobot caps are especially rare and i frequently see people buying them for $500 each i actually think artisans make sense to be so expensive since there is a level of artistry and rarity that most boards do not have. some of the rare korean boards are super rare t…

You've got me curious, what makes a particular keycap sell the prices you quote? I can understand how valuation tied to rarity, but people paying ~$500 for a single cap implies that there's significantly more to it than scarcity. I know that if I try to search for an answer I'll get a bunch of cruft given my lack of knowledge of what question to even ask, so I'm hoping you can provide some background for a n00b :) Th…

Artisan caps are a whole different thing. Basically the idea is that you get a fancy looking keycap that might be a little sculpture cast in a clear resin or even something 3d like a metal fist of thanos, and you replace 1 or 2 keys on your keyboard with it like an accent decoration.

Frequently people do it with the escape key and the space bar. They sell out fast and for certain designers I've seen the prices go up from $70 during the group buy to hundreds.

Here's one I wish I got so I could keep and use it. I missed out though and I refuse to pay $400 for a space bar.

They are legitimately a work of art though.

https://www.jellykey.com/wp-content/uploads//Jelly-Key-space...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jelly-Key-Zen-Pond-Koi-Spacebar-Key...