In the long term it would cause more harm then good.
Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
181–190 of 255 posts
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#182Besides all the obvious privacy/freedom reasons, banning things NEVER works. Think about how hard we try to ban physical things (drugs, guns, etc). Now imagine trying to limit encryption.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#183I support it 100%, because I have everything to hide as my life is mine and doesn't belong to anyone else, including governments or improbable divinities. If for some people in power this mean I'm either a murderer, a rapist, a drug dealer, a pedophile, a terrorist, or whatever, they're free to spend taxpayers money to find out how wrong their assumptions were, then get voted out of their seats. Anyone using the "if…
> I'd keep defending this principle even in case one of those criminals would exterminate my entire family. I think that's a bit too far... but I get your point. When having a discussion around privacy, I had no response to "you shouldn't have anything to hide" because I know privacy should somewhat be a human right (especially given its commoditization) but didn't know exactly why it's so important given that most G…
My response to the "I have nothing to hide" argument:
i) do you wear clothes? You are hiding yourself! Why not walk naked down the street? You have something to hide.
ii) do you have curtains on your house? Why? (The answer is almost never "to keep out there light") Most people walk fully clothed in their own house. You have something to hide.
I also liken dragnet surveillance (a major reason on why we need E2EE) to upskirting. People have a basic right to assume some privacy even when in public... Otherwise the objectionable practice of upskirting should be legal too.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'd keep defending this principle even in case one of those criminals would exterminate my entire family. I think that's a bit too far... but I get your point. When having a discussion around privacy, I had no response to "you shouldn't have anything to hide" because I know privacy should somewhat be a human right (especially given its commoditization) but didn't know exactly why it's so important given that most G…
Maybe you and I have different understandings of what a "right" is. I define a "right" as something that cannot be taken away , and there are very few of these. Your story, your thoughts, and your will, are all you have a right to - while you are alive. Every other nicety in life is due to mutual respect, agreements and the ability to use force should those agreements be broken. If I am using a restroom, I don't have…
Although I agree with what you're saying, I always thought that a right was something the government gave us after taking it away in the first place, proving that a right is a political term, at least now days.
I've always used intrinsic right as you suggest to describe what you mention, to differentiate the two.
Because the problem lies in the political domain, it's not unexpected that these two ideas (intrinsic rights vs privilege) are deliberately conflated precisely to blur the boundary, making their agenda achievable: the control of people.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#185I support it 100%, because I have everything to hide as my life is mine and doesn't belong to anyone else, including governments or improbable divinities. If for some people in power this mean I'm either a murderer, a rapist, a drug dealer, a pedophile, a terrorist, or whatever, they're free to spend taxpayers money to find out how wrong their assumptions were, then get voted out of their seats. Anyone using the "if…
> I'd keep defending this principle even in case one of those criminals would exterminate my entire family. I think that's a bit too far... but I get your point. When having a discussion around privacy, I had no response to "you shouldn't have anything to hide" because I know privacy should somewhat be a human right (especially given its commoditization) but didn't know exactly why it's so important given that most G…
> > I'd keep defending this principle even in case one of those criminals would exterminate my entire family.
>I think that's a bit too far... but I get your point.
Another way to say this is "I'd uphold this principle if it were your family, and I'd expect you to do the same if it were my family." It's understandable for principles to break down for individuals in extreme (contrived) circumstances, so long as most people abide by them.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#186The short answer: "None of your god damn business", which is the point. The only counterpoint to end-to-end is "we want to be able to access your private conversations", which isn't really a counterpoint unless you agree with spying on citizens and would like to also allow the government to come into your house and place listening devices as they please, listen to your phone calls whenever they please, open up your m…
> Hell, actually require you to wear a device at all times so all conversations can be recorded.
The government could similarly demand backdoors into people's private devices, so people can be listened to and their usage of the device recorded, in case they might be up to no good.
I see essentially no moral difference between banning E2EE and banning security of devices. If you have no right to communicate secretly with a person, why should you have any right to communicate secretly with a possession?
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#187Because encryption is math and knowledge. Banning it will only stop legitimate users while bad actors can still just go ahead and encrypt their stuff. If politicians consider leaving everybody vulnerable to catch criminals, this is a incredibly high price to pay. I’d argue that the price is so high that even with evidence that this would help catch criminals we should still consider not doing it. However there is no…
Counterpoint (playing devil's advocate) - if we ban e2e encryption platforms (or require a backdoor), then anyone found to be using a non backdoored tool is suspicious, reducing the effort required for law enforcement investigations.
but then how am i going to keep my ssh server safe? i get break-in attempts every second. if ssh gets a backdoor, then i guarantee you it will be exploited.
intruders may not care about my communication, but they do care about being able to access my servers, so you can not force me to use encryption with a backdoor without putting me and my company at risk.
if encryption without a backdoor gets outlawed entirely i'll go out of business because i will no longer be able to run any servers.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'd keep defending this principle even in case one of those criminals would exterminate my entire family. I think that's a bit too far... but I get your point. When having a discussion around privacy, I had no response to "you shouldn't have anything to hide" because I know privacy should somewhat be a human right (especially given its commoditization) but didn't know exactly why it's so important given that most G…
My response to the "I have nothing to hide" argument: i) do you wear clothes? You are hiding yourself! Why not walk naked down the street? You have something to hide. ii) do you have curtains on your house? Why? (The answer is almost never "to keep out there light") Most people walk fully clothed in their own house. You have something to hide. I also liken dragnet surveillance (a major reason on why we need E2EE) to…
Why not walk down the street naked? I'd love to, but then I'd get arrested. Irony...
Cheekiness aside ( Pun ;) ), I second your point. "Having something to hide" is frequently conflated with "not wanting to share something with everyone that I don't need to".
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#189Quite simple really. The government is a terrorist crime syndicate that happens to own the monopoly on the legitimate use of violence and no one should give them access to their personal lives, lest they be locked in a cage or treated with pointless violence.
Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?
#190Personal opinions (even ones grounded in science) that run contrary to prevailing norms have become weaponized. Until that goes away, I want my privacy.