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Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

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Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that what you are saying here doesn't necessarily serve as a counterpoint to the GP's point. Rather, it's only an additional piece of evidence. Where GP referred to things like a parent being sick serving as a downward pressure in the effort to improve one's circumstances the point is one of externalities which are not typically accounted for. And in this case, the externality you're bringing up is that often…

By far the best thing people from a poor background can do to better themselves is to fight the culture they are surrounded by. This is why I say the parent post is not "helpful". When things seem hopeless, why fight? It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. I know other people are capable of this as well, even if not to the degree…

> "Rich people stacked the deck against you and there's nothing you can do about it" is not helpful in any way.

Does anyone even say that?

It's not rich people stacking the deck, it's nature. The rich just happen to have a lot more tools (money) available to deal with that deck.

> It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best.

You even touch on it here, so clearly you are aware that your struggles had nothing to do with rich people (except maybe tangentially) but with the environment you were in. That's what people talk about when they talk about the deck being stacked against someone.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of learning math or computers: it is their decision to make. A lot of those people won't care that you are more successful than them. They're content with just watching football: it's what they're choosing to do, after all.

That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition. If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.

Both of you have valid points.

I too am one of those people who overcame a lot early in life.

Our choices matter. Of course they do.

What is often not discussed is a reasonable, modest life. For many people, that is all they want, and our current society is growing toxic to it. The "game" of life does not need to be as hard as it currently is. Nor does it need to select for extremes.

No matter how great our ability to choose is, the fact is only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary.

The other fact is luck plays a huge role.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#133
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think about this as well. My parents struggled so that I could have a comfortable life. But I did see the struggle up-close, and am lucky to have inherited the work-ethic. I have a comfortable upper-middle-class life and think about how do you make sure that the kids inherit that. The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. My dad is 70 and could have retired in any part of the world, 10 years back,…

> The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. That doesn't seem to work unfortunately. Good if it does for you :)

You mean, it's not working for you or your kids?

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By far the best thing people from a poor background can do to better themselves is to fight the culture they are surrounded by. This is why I say the parent post is not "helpful". When things seem hopeless, why fight? It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. I know other people are capable of this as well, even if not to the degree…

> "Rich people stacked the deck against you and there's nothing you can do about it" is not helpful in any way. Does anyone even say that? It's not rich people stacking the deck, it's nature. The rich just happen to have a lot more tools (money) available to deal with that deck. > It took a tremendous amount of strength and faith in myself to ignore literally everyone I knew and do what I thought was best. You even t…

Right, I agree with you. In so many ways the deck is stacked. What I'm saying is that by far the number one thing people can do to improve their situation is to work hard and fight the prevailing culture. Nothing else will provide gains or opportunity like that. Even if someone fails, it's really the best chance they will have.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition. If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.

Both of you have valid points. I too am one of those people who overcame a lot early in life. Our choices matter. Of course they do. What is often not discussed is a reasonable, modest life. For many people, that is all they want, and our current society is growing toxic to it. The "game" of life does not need to be as hard as it currently is. Nor does it need to select for extremes. No matter how great our ability t…

> only a fraction of us will do well, and the rest are going to really struggle and that is unnecessary.

I'm not entirely sure it's unnecessary. Not everyone can live an upper middle class lifestyle.

My main message is that there's culture changes that can and must be enacted within those communities or individuals that will provide opportunity.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#137
Living in survival mode has a severely negative impact on growth and on the brain/thinking. This is why poor people often stay poor and make bad decisions. The brilliant stem cell biologist Dr. Bruce Lipton describes in chapter 6 of his book “The Biology of Belief” why an organism cannot simultaneously be in a state of growth and protection:

"By now you won’t be surprised to learn that I first became aware of how important growth and protection behaviors are in the laboratory where my observations of single cells have so often led me to insights about the multicellular human body. When I was cloning human endothelial cells, they retreated from toxins that I introduced into the culture dish, just as humans retreat from mountain lions and muggers in dark alleys. They also gravitated to nutrients, just as humans gravitate to breakfast, lunch, dinner and love. These opposing movements define the two basic cellular responses to environmental stimuli. Gravitating to a life-sustaining signal, such as nutrients, characterizes a growth response; moving away from threatening signals, such as toxins, characterizes a protection response. It must also be noted that some environmental stimuli are neutral; they provoke neither a growth nor a protection response. My research at Stanford showed that these growth/protection behaviors are also essential for the survival of multicellular organisms such as humans. But there is a catch to these opposing survival mechanisms that have evolved over billions of years. It turns out that the mechanisms that support growth and protection cannot operate optimally at the same time. In other words, cells cannot simultaneously move forward and backward. The human blood vessel cells I studied at Stanford exhibited one microscopic anatomy for providing nutrition and a completely different microscopic anatomy for providing a protection response. What they couldn’t do was exhibit both configurations at the same time. [Lipton, et al, 1991) In a response similar to that displayed by cells, humans unavoidably restrict their growth behaviors when they shift into a protective mode. If you’re running from a mountain lion, it’s not a good idea to expend energy on growth. In order to survive — that is, escape the lion — you summon all your energy for your fight or flight response. Redistributing energy reserves to fuel the protection response inevitably results in a curtailment of growth."

In other words, living in a constant state of survival (as unsteady income might cause), severely restricts a person’s capabilities to grow in a healthy way.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#138
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The answer is to keep the work ethic going - working hard. That doesn't seem to work unfortunately. Good if it does for you :)

You mean, it's not working for you or your kids?

For the kids - they don't seem to take inspiration at all from us, in fact it's almost like they make a point to be as different from us as possible. Maybe that'll change after the teenage years, who knows :). But, tbh, I don't even mind. I don't want them necessarily to make similar choices with ours... it's just that their path is so different that I don't know where it'll lead them (we're both engineers, our kids seem to have artistic inclinations for some reason). It's a bit stressful because they're so different, but I take comfort in the fact that it's their choices to make, and anyway compared to the average person, they'll have ample support & opportunities to change their mind later, should they want to. They definitely have more room for mistakes than we did.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#139
post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

I understand where you're coming from and there are definitely statistics and luck at play in the game of like, but I don't fully agree with your conclusion. As someone who also came from a slightly lower income background I had a lot of support encouraging me to cultivate a habit of reading and from my parents that helped me heaps. Anecdotally, I know many people who came from much higher socioeconomic backgrounds w…

> If you go to third world countries like India, etc. you'll realize that even people who are dirt poor place an extremely huge amount of importance on education.

While I get your point, I don’t fully agree with this statement. The anti-intellectual strain is pretty common in India as well, it’s just a bit warped. There definitely is a fetish for getting into a good college and getting the right/prestigious credentials, but actual education (grounded, multi-disciplinary, non-rote-based) is many-a-time sneered upon, at least in my personal experience. I was lucky enough that my parents encouraged reading (they sometimes strained their finances so that my sister and I could get good books). A lot of my peers did not share or appreciate the necessity of reading “outside the syllabus”.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#140
post #32
post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

I wonder if it's "fixable", though. I come from a lower-middle-class family, so does my wife; we're upper-middle-class now. Our kids are nowhere near as "driven" as we were... but, to the extent that we can, of course we're going to use all our resources to make them more successful than they "deserve". It's basic human nature, yes the game is rigged, because if you come from a family that is both stable & well-off,…

My wife and I talk about this. We are unsure if we have done a disservice to our kids by shielding them from the crap we had to deal with. We were poor, from broken homes, had to work very hard, and have a bit of luck to get where we are. Our kids are just so lazy.
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