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Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

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Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#111
post #41

How about the 4th amendment? Or even the principle of it if you aren’t in the US. No other argument is needed. If you argue against this you seriously need to re-evaluate your motives. Ridiculous question.

You dismiss the question as ridiculous by pointing to the 4th Amendment. But you then seem to hand-wave away all the nuances that are intrinsic to your own argument, and thus make this question not ridiculous at all.

If you believe the 4th Amendment should be the answer to the question, then what about the flip side of the 4th Amendment: that it does allow reasonable searches with a warrant. This was the justification for "key escrow" systems in which master keys could only be unlocked with a court order. Do you support this approach? If not, why not?

Another question: If you believe the 4A's exclusive role, then do you also agree with the Supreme Court's interpretation that in ''national security cases'' electronic surveillance upon the authorization of the President or the Attorney General could be permissible without prior judicial approval? (See Katz v. United States)

If not, why do you believe so strongly in constitutional protections but not the equally-constitutionally defined role of the SCOTUS to interpret it? And if you do agree with SCOTUS interpretation, why should E2EE prevent a lawful intercept if directed by the President for national security matters?

For the record, I support E2EE, but these are serious issues that can't be hand-waved away. The question is anything but ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#112
It's nice to know that if some information I may send to my spouse, credit cards, accouunt information, photos of my passport or license needed for foreign travel, aren't sitting on some corporate server uunencrypted waiting for a data leak (caused by anything from a hacker to careless disposal of obsolete disk drives).

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#113
post #16

> how do you respond when someone brings up concerns of E2EE platforms being used for child sexual abuse imagery or terrorism? These are only a tiny part of uses of encryption. Ask anyone if he would like to have his bank transfers, or his credit card credentials in plain text. End to end encryption allows the whole internet to act as a commerce platform. Encryption allows journalists and activists in strict, control…

They still catch them, usually by posing as a "bad guy" and infiltrating their group. That's how it's been done forever, and it still works that way.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#114
Bruce Schneier articulated the backdoor problem best:

‘We can design beautiful locks but we can’t keep the master key safe’.

If we can’t keep other nations from stealing the nuclear bomb plans, how do we expect to keep the master spy key safe?

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#116

Politicians propose to forbid all buildings from having doors. After all "bad people/stuff etc." could lock the doors and hide behind them. Anyone arguing against that is obviously against safety. Counterpoints: - Do we currently have a big door problem? - Wait, don't doors also serve an important function? - Won't that make everybody much more insecure and basically do nothing against "bad stuff"? - What if I put a…

> (see TSA locks and basically any time in history that was tried). For anyone unaware, the TSA lock master key was leaked by including a photo of an actual master key in a newspaper article about said locks. I don't think encryption keys shared with police/govt. will be any safer.

Also, IIRC some of the keys were reverse engineered even with no government negligence necessary.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ctovswild.com/2016/07/25/safesk...

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#117
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see these comparisons made so, so frequently and it bothers me. Guns are not the same as encryption or cars. Yet they're so often made in apples to apples comparisons that it's mind boggling to me. Weapons are uniquely special in that they are specifically designed to maim and kill. Via defense or justified actions is irrelevant; it's a tool of war. Arguably, if there was E2E software that was specifically designed…

It is exactly the same with guns. Mind you i come from country with relatively hard to get gun licenses. What about sports shooting? Collecting? Personal defence in dangerous areas? Hunting(which because we fucked up ecosystems in some areas, culling is necessary)? Also over here modern black-powder guns are legal, without license. And they are both VERY dangerous(way more dangerous in a crowds) and relatively cheap.…

Can you explain why a black-powder gun would be more dangerous? I don't see what would make them so much more dangerous than a typical rifle.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#119
I am working on an application that will allow chat and a shared file system (cross-OS). It will feature end-to-end encryption through key exchange and it will be mostly peer-to-peer.

The basic idea is that users should have privacy. Real privacy would disqualify a service in the middle from intercepting and retaining user traffic. There must be some compromise though because the current internet model makes actual peer-to-peer without a middle service incredibly challenging. This is the problem I am attempting to solve, a client-to-client model instead of a client-server-client model. There will likely have to be a service in the middle to provide routing via DNS and tunneling via port 80 to get around things like firewalls and non-routable addressing, but traffic should be encrypted so that the middle service only provides a tunnel for encrypted data.

When I get far enough that I can turn this into a business I would not be able to serve advertisements to users, because their traffic would be encrypted. The disadvantage there is that I would have to find an alternate revenue model. The advantage here is that law enforcement could issue legal requests for user data and the only thing I could give them are account or billing details. I could not give out user contributed data, because you cannot give what you don't have.

I have also thought of a scheme to anonymize users in the system so that users are known to each other, but to everybody else the user ID is just some 128 character hash string bound to a private IP address. I haven't really thought through discovery yet, such as a user looking for their friend to exchange keys. With an anonymous user scheme in place user would have even more privacy. Users should never be anonymous to each other, because should be anonymous to those without access to their encryption. I will solve for this once I get to it.

As a service provider I would retain the power to disallow traffic via certain keys or anonymous IDs provided a proper legal request from a legal authority. If there is evidence of illegal activity gathered from regular police work I should be able to discontinue access to specifically identified accounts in accordance with the law, but it would require evidence I could not provide to law enforcement.

So far the shared file system operations are mostly built. I would like for this work as a Window-like GUI in the browser, which is built, and a command driven application from the terminal which is half built. I haven't started work on the security model or key exchange yet but I have a plan on how these should work. Once I debug copy/paste/delete from a file system on one computer to the file system on another computer from within the browser I will move on from the technical tasks to more revenue worthy tasks. I am almost there, but still have some work to do. This is taking long to write and test than I originally imagined.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#120
i'm going to go against the grain here and propose an alternative arrangement

medium term, i don't see how democracy can function if E2EE becomes the norm (esp in the context of cryptocurrency). influence-buying, disinformation, collusion, bribes, bullying, etc become much much easier, and policing would become nearly impossible

instead, ban E2EE but allow each person to have multiple identities (with technical means to prevent them from being tied together or expose personal info - a nontrivial but solvable problem), ie Privacy via Multiple Identity or PvMI

this scheme would provide many of the benefits of E2EE (eg, preventing an employer from punishing your for political speech) while allowing policing of many illegal activities. one exception is that if the people became fed up with the govt and wanted to stage an armed rebellion, PvMI wouldn't help (though it would help get to the point of consensus that rebellion is needed). I'm not sure how practical the concept of armed rebellion is today, but I haven't written it off either. So this is a downside.

Can anyone think of any other not-harmful-to-society activity that E2EE helps with that PvMI wouldn't ?

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