Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

news.ycombinator.com

71–80 of 255 posts

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#71
post #62
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Guns can be controlled without eliminating them from the hands of the public. E2E encryption cannot be "controlled" without undermining it's nature and purpose.

What if the government decided that you can use E2E encryption, but only using encryption protocols they are capable of cracking? Like, you could only use DES for your E2E encryption. That'd be similar to how gun control is now; you're allowed to have them, but only if the government approves them. If you need stronger than DES, you have to send in an application to the federal government, just like people who want automatic weapons or suppressors.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#72
There are already existing E2EE encryption services (Telegram, Signal, etc). Those engaged in illegal activities would switch or continue to use those if you degrade the security of other services.

You don't stop child abusers etc. They move to a different platform and you make everyone else less safe.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the requirement for telecom companies to provide wiretapping capabilities square with your view of the 4th amendment?

I really don’t grok your question. Indiscriminate (“unreasonable”) use, without a warrant, is unconstitutional.

The 4th Amendment both implicitly creates (or, rather, assumes) a general warrant requirement (for which it sets a probable cause requirement) and bans unreasonable searches and seizures; it doesn't allow warrants for unreasonable use.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#74
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the requirement for telecom companies to provide wiretapping capabilities square with your view of the 4th amendment?

I really don’t grok your question. Indiscriminate (“unreasonable”) use, without a warrant, is unconstitutional.

So as long as the same legal hurdles are in place, you don't have a problem with Facebook (for example) being required to provide law enforcement with access to unencrypted comms?

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#75
E2E encryption doesn't need an argument for it, it has specific, valuable and demonstrated uses, and I reject the premise of the question that the technical and business use cases for it need an accompanying rhetorical justification. The people asking for the arguments are not people who can be persuaded by argument, they are looking for ways to drive another agenda. It's disingenuous and not a matter of reason.

To respond to the question itself, let's start with what we actually do. We make the stuff people actually want, and thanks to abuses by authorities around the world, today they want privacy and trustworthy tools. We build things that facilitate growth and massive improvements in quality of life for literally billions of people around the world. That growth comes from building the things they both want and trust, and use each day to improve the quality of their own lives and of their families. I would encourage governments to get better at offering the same things.

The extreme cases cited in the OP are abused by people with agendas to use them as levers to assert their narrow interests, and not because they want to solve those particular problems. Parading victims of abuse and violence to bolster a narrow surveillance agenda is the rhetorical equivalent of using human shields. Hardly anyone is actually stupid, and everyone sees it. Further, why would you ask technologists to presume good, altruistic and aligned intentions in governments who want to conduct surveillance, yet not among ourselves and our users of encryption services? We can't make that altruism generalization about our own governments, let alone ones in other markets. I would reject this particular premise in being asked to make an argument "for," as well.

The question, "I need you to justify your view to me, and with it, these objectively terrible things" is disingenuous.

The short answer is technologists do not have the solutions to niche social and political problems any more so than anyone else. Terrorism, abuse, and porn exist independently of tech. The "arguments," against E2E encryption are made by people who don't have responsibility for the outcomes of their efforts, and are using these threats to deflect that and make others responsible for them.

If we all gave up E2E encryption, the value people entrust to networks would be reduced to where it would derail and destroy the economic growth trajectory which that trust facilitates to improve peoples lives. The solution is not for tech to do less of what people demonstrably want and willingly pay for, it's for governments to be smarter about their own roles and responsibilities.

If you want to solve the problems of abuse and terrorism directly, there are a ton of solutions that don't involve destroying the trust people have in each other that has improved our collective quality of life immeasurably in the last 30 years.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#76

Politicians propose to forbid all buildings from having doors. After all "bad people/stuff etc." could lock the doors and hide behind them. Anyone arguing against that is obviously against safety. Counterpoints: - Do we currently have a big door problem? - Wait, don't doors also serve an important function? - Won't that make everybody much more insecure and basically do nothing against "bad stuff"? - What if I put a…

I'm not sure this is a great analogy as yes, we permit people to have doors and locks but society also provides a mechanism for the government to lawfully get access to them. If the Police have a legit reason to access a property they go to court and get a warrent, and if they need to they'll kick the door in to get in.

The current government requests to be able to access encrypted info with a warrent are an extension of what currently happens in physical space.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#77

Compare it to an envelope in the regular mail. How would they feel if every post office along the way opened their mail, made a photocopy, and put it back in a new envelope before passing it on? Because that's the way things currently are with e.g. Facebook Messenger, Gmail, etc. E2E is when your envelopes are only opened by their final recipient.

I'm with you, but as a critique for your metaphor: Does the layperson receive meaningful mail anymore? With the exception of my W-2 and the occasional jury summons, I feel like nothing about my life would change if the post office just threw away my envelopes.

Yes, I get bills, banking records, payment slips, voting papers etc all per mail.

I also have a shredder to destroy it before throwing them away.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#78
Because I have a fundamental right to privacy, and encrypted communications are an appropriate way to fulfill that right. While that right can be suspended at times, such as if a person were the subject of a criminal investigation after reasonable suspicion, a blanket prohibition of secure communication is not justified.

People act differently when they are being watched. This is not a bad thing, and is not an accusation of immoral behavior. People are more likely to pick their nose while in private. People are also less likely to express morally correct but unpopular beliefs, such as supporting gay rights a few decades ago, if they believe that it will have negative social consequences. By having privacy, social movements can slowly grow over time.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#79
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use E2E as a means to sell or auction a person against their will, wouldn't that directly link the technology to their illegal action? Also, distributing child porn is itself a crime, separate from the abuse. So you would be directly using E2E in a crime that way. Are you implying that some laws hold less moral or legal value? If so, what are the differentiating factors in that decision?

(Don’t) Try to use the sole function of a gun on yourself without harming yourself. Now use WhatsApp on yourself and see what happens. Do you do nothing because you have to think up something to write? The act of writing up the auction is the first part of the crime. Even if you don’t go through with selling a human you may or may not have, you may still be charged for having written that message and sharing it someh…

I don't see the point you are trying to make.

Using the function of a gun on oneself is not a lawful use case, just as selling a human is not a lawful use case for WhatsApp. A more apt comparison using your example of not writing anything to encrypt would be the possession of a firearm compared to the possession of an E2E system. Both have lawful as well as unlawful uses.

On the part about writing the message being the first part of the crime and comparing that to committing suicide with a gun, the gun is the means by which the crime was committed, just as the means for the crime of selling the person would have been the medium through which it was transacted - WhatsApp in this case.

Perhaps you where trying to explain something else?

Post reply on HN