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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#51

Post by JeremyBanks »

myrion wrote: post #38
DanBC wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit confusing because a mod was removed, and a bunch of other mods resigned in support, and then it came out that she'd been removed for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. Stack Exchange is perceived by many people to be unwelcoming. There has been persistent concern that SE is even more unwelcoming to people with protected characteristics. SE have made considerable effort to fix this. Recently they'…

Thank you, this is a very good summary!

It's false. Monica is an LGBT Ally and much of the anger is that she's being publicly smeared as a bigot when we know her not to be

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#52

Post by rmilejczz »

thredj3941 wrote: post #37
ameen wrote: post #25

SE’s actions seem heavy-handed to say the least, and to be fair it is a private platform dictated by their own rules - but what this will lead to is disillusionment within the community and honestly I feel this has been a long time coming. If neither the mods nor users feel heard, who does this “platform” serve?

why does the stack network ( https://stackexchange.com/sites# ) have any advantages? I see a lot of complaints, about questions closed as redundant etc, and about moderation, but what keeps someone from putting a better version up? In particular unlike quora, the reputation of the person answering doesn't seem as important. most people would accept anyone's answer as long as it works. so what's the important network…

I’ve been wondering the same thing myself lately, the only advantage I can think of this accumulated information on the site (in the form of Q&As). I’d imagine a majority of SE traffic is people reading old questions, though if anyone knows this assumption to be wrong please correct me. I also wonder if scraping the Q&As and posting elsewhere would be some sort of legal violation? It would be fairly trivial to host the current body of knowledge up to this point on a static site and then start fresh.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#53

Post by danaris »

luckylion wrote: post #44
DanBC wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit confusing because a mod was removed, and a bunch of other mods resigned in support, and then it came out that she'd been removed for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. Stack Exchange is perceived by many people to be unwelcoming. There has been persistent concern that SE is even more unwelcoming to people with protected characteristics. SE have made considerable effort to fix this. Recently they'…

> it came out that she'd been removed for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. That's not true. She was removed for asking whether, after the not-yet-current CoC was made official (which asks to use preferred pronouns) it would be allowed to use third person pronouns to circumvent the issue. Neither was preferred pronoun-usage a rule, nor had she disobeyed that rule (yet).

If you don't know someone's gender or preferred pronouns, it's reasonable to use "they/them".

If someone has explicitly asked you to use "she/her", and you exclusively use "they/them", you are still not using that person's preferred pronouns.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#54

Post by luckylion »

danaris wrote: post #53
luckylion wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it came out that she'd been removed for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. That's not true. She was removed for asking whether, after the not-yet-current CoC was made official (which asks to use preferred pronouns) it would be allowed to use third person pronouns to circumvent the issue. Neither was preferred pronoun-usage a rule, nor had she disobeyed that rule (yet).

If you don't know someone's gender or preferred pronouns, it's reasonable to use "they/them". If someone has explicitly asked you to use "she/her", and you exclusively use "they/them", you are still not using that person's preferred pronouns .

I don't disagree on the facts, but neither was there a rule (yet) that says you have to, nor has she done that. She has asked whether it would be against the future CoC not to.

No comparison is perfect, but it feels similar to me asking a cop whether it's going to be illegal to do X under the new law that is being discussed, and them arresting and charging me for doing X. Neither is X currently outlawed, nor have I committed X, I have merely inquired about the legality of X.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#55

Post by luckylion »

rmilejczz wrote: post #52
thredj3941 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why does the stack network ( https://stackexchange.com/sites# ) have any advantages? I see a lot of complaints, about questions closed as redundant etc, and about moderation, but what keeps someone from putting a better version up? In particular unlike quora, the reputation of the person answering doesn't seem as important. most people would accept anyone's answer as long as it works. so what's the important network…

I’ve been wondering the same thing myself lately, the only advantage I can think of this accumulated information on the site (in the form of Q&As). I’d imagine a majority of SE traffic is people reading old questions, though if anyone knows this assumption to be wrong please correct me. I also wonder if scraping the Q&As and posting elsewhere would be some sort of legal violation? It would be fairly trivial to host t…

> I also wonder if scraping the Q&As and posting elsewhere would be some sort of legal violation?

The (unilateral) relicensing was another recent issue, but generally not. All user contributions are licensed CC-BY-SA 3.0 so I don't see legal reasons stopping you. Google won't send you any traffic, though, because it will be duplicate content and the original has a gajillion links pointing to it.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#56

Post by thelazydogsback »

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to do so on SO or even in person. The other person can take offense or not, it is their/his/her own choice. I suppose the problem can be solved by just always using the person's name, or using other anaphora such as "the OP", or @username, etc.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#57

Post by iliketocomplain »

danaris wrote: post #53
luckylion wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it came out that she'd been removed for refusing to use people's preferred pronouns. That's not true. She was removed for asking whether, after the not-yet-current CoC was made official (which asks to use preferred pronouns) it would be allowed to use third person pronouns to circumvent the issue. Neither was preferred pronoun-usage a rule, nor had she disobeyed that rule (yet).

If you don't know someone's gender or preferred pronouns, it's reasonable to use "they/them". If someone has explicitly asked you to use "she/her", and you exclusively use "they/them", you are still not using that person's preferred pronouns .

"They" is plural, using it for one person is just wrong grammar. Seems unbelievable nobody at SE noticed that, makes the complete discussion a non issue.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#58

Post by uberman »

tylerl wrote: post #12
uberman wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a correct observation to me. A nothing / false apology that seems to serve little other than to kick the hornet's nest. I'm curious, how do you see it?

Ya...that was a joke. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is the classic apology-free use of the word "sorry". It means "I pity you for your plight" rather than "I recognize my mistake".

ah, my bad then.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#59

Post by mikroskeem »

RickJWagner wrote: post #50

How much easier the world would be if we just: - Don't offend people - If you are offended, be the bigger person and ignore it

1) easy, theoretically. See below for practical. 2) no matter how you these days, someone is always offended. Either because they are unable to create a proper perspective for themselves (I am sorry if this is wrong pronoun for you reader, I am not aware what you prefer), or they don't want to create one.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#60

Post by effingwewt »

thelazydogsback wrote: post #56

It's hard to be believe that people who are brave enough to deal with LGBTQIA issues in their own lives and face actual in-your-face challenges would actually give a crap what pronoun someone used on a technical forum, and it seems absurd to regulate such behavior. If I don't want to be a dick and am aware of the preference, then I will try and use the person's preferred pronoun - but I'm certainly not obligated to d…

So, the solution you proposed is exactly what the moderators asked to do. Seems fair enough to me. They were told that not playing the pronoun game is the same as harassing whomever they are speaking to.

The whole situation is ridiculous to me. How have we come to a point where not only do people think I care in the slightest who or what they have sex with (or don't, whatever), but they demand I call them by some word they made up to classify themselves as something? Don't tell me what I can or can't say, and I wont tell you who/what you can and can't screw.

How do fascists not realize they are being such? "You don't have proper thoughts on matters so you aren't allowed to speak".

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