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Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

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61–70 of 255 posts

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#61

Compare it to an envelope in the regular mail. How would they feel if every post office along the way opened their mail, made a photocopy, and put it back in a new envelope before passing it on? Because that's the way things currently are with e.g. Facebook Messenger, Gmail, etc. E2E is when your envelopes are only opened by their final recipient.

I'm with you, but as a critique for your metaphor:

Does the layperson receive meaningful mail anymore? With the exception of my W-2 and the occasional jury summons, I feel like nothing about my life would change if the post office just threw away my envelopes.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#62
post #4
post #2

Just because someone can abuse a thing doesn't make the thing bad, it makes the person who commits the abuse bad. We don't ban cars to fight drunk driving and we shouldn't eliminate the spirit of the 4th Amendment to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers and drug dealers. Even with E2E encrypted communications the fact that user A is communicating with user B, when, and for how long is knowable,…

[flagged]

Guns can be controlled without eliminating them from the hands of the public. E2E encryption cannot be "controlled" without undermining it's nature and purpose.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#63
I don't think there are multiple arguments here to beat around, despite people going on like it's a many-sided story. It all comes down to two conflicting principles:

- People's privacy is inviolable

- State's right to surveil people's actions must be unlimited

Before now, the balance was kept by surveillance being too expensive. But it was already pretty obvious in the 80s that we're quickly going full cyberpunk: communication and processing of info become dirt cheap, everyone is moving to digital comms for ease of use, and suddenly vastly expanded surveillance is easy, both on the net and in the physical world.

In ten years, net connection will be ubiquitous like electricity, all info about the world will be processed in real time, minds will directly control computers, and the agencies will ask why they should give up vacuuming it all if someone might plan a crime somewhere in there. Why draw the line at the datacenter instead of personal computers if the boundary is barely there? Why must there be a limit? The argument of “there might be something unlawful on there” doesn't have a limit.

If you think that a discussion between people, or their actions, should be private like they were before, you gotta ask where the firm line is. But I don't really see anyone doing a cost-benefit analysis on privacy vs surveillance, since conveniently for the agencies it's a ethics issue, and measuring ethics with numbers is frowned upon. So it's gonna be “X crimes prevented and Y solved” vs some indeterminate inconvenience caused by data leaks and corrupt officials.

As a bonus exercise, ask yourself: if to beat criminals the police has by principle to have criminals' tools―violence and disregard for privacy―then what stops police from turning into criminals on the side? These two markets are for the same skills. For some countries, it's not an idle question. And obviously, if a tool is available to police, it becomes available to criminals too.

But personally, I don't think privacy advocates will ultimately have much weight in the decision on this dilemma. People like to pretend that they highly value personal freedom, but the whole shtick of society is that it has a net benefit for a population by limiting individuals. Band together with other people, lose the freedom to be as gross as you want as loud as you want, have to do favors to keep connections. Pay some organized bullies to defend from other ones, concentrate on your own job instead. Move to the city, be highly visible to many people but have a variety of decent food, and sewers. We were giving up freedom for security and convenience for thousands of years, and I doubt we're going to stop now.

(BTW, afaik the cliché quote about giving up liberty for safety is used completely wrong and originally had exactly the opposite context.)

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#64
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I see these comparisons made so, so frequently and it bothers me. Guns are not the same as encryption or cars. Yet they're so often made in apples to apples comparisons that it's mind boggling to me. Weapons are uniquely special in that they are specifically designed to maim and kill. Via defense or justified actions is irrelevant; it's a tool of war. Arguably, if there was E2E software that was specifically designed…

The argument is: If you (USA) accept that kids are harmed due to lack of gun control, then do not use harm to kids as an argument against E2E encryption. It is hypocritical.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#65
post #41

How about the 4th amendment? Or even the principle of it if you aren’t in the US. No other argument is needed. If you argue against this you seriously need to re-evaluate your motives. Ridiculous question.

How does the requirement for telecom companies to provide wiretapping capabilities square with your view of the 4th amendment?

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#66
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing E2EE encryption with encryption in transit/rest in the commerce example. The majority of transactions today are encrypted in transit and (you would hope) encrypted at rest so that the bank and selected parties can access the data (including the customer). There is no bank that would encrypt financial data using E2EE so that only the customer and merchant could access it, which is the analogy here on…

Correct. Nice catch. I still think that full E2E is a fundamental human right.

Many governments agree with you. Sometimes hypocritically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_privacy

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#67
I see the need of the police to access personal communication to fight child abuse. However, if the police can access it, then so can NSA, China, Mafia, and random hackers. A backdoor is not restricted for long. I consider this risk higher than child pornography.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#68

Encryption is math. Can we really make a form of math illegal? I feel privacy is a basic human right regardless of what country you live in. I’m not fan of punishing the majority because of a screwed up minority. People who commit illegal acts as horrible as child abuse and terrorism are not going to respect the law when it comes to encryption. Again, you can’t stop people from doing math. The idea of making it illeg…

> Again, you can’t stop people from doing math. The idea of making it illegal is silly.

I don't think anybody is suggesting two individuals should not be allowed to use math to protect their conversations. Even if Facebook adds a way for law enforcement to access communications individuals are still free to talk in code or encrypt their messages before putting it on the wire. With your old telephone, your carrier can wiretap your line but you can still use a scrambler or talk in code and the tap will reveal only metadata.

How is Facebook (or other internet services) being required to provide wire tap access any different from a telecom company?

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#69
post #41

How about the 4th amendment? Or even the principle of it if you aren’t in the US. No other argument is needed. If you argue against this you seriously need to re-evaluate your motives. Ridiculous question.

How does the requirement for telecom companies to provide wiretapping capabilities square with your view of the 4th amendment?

I really don’t grok your question. Indiscriminate (“unreasonable”) use, without a warrant, is unconstitutional.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#70

I believe the federal government's concern (and those of various law enforcement agencies, etc.) is not with E2EE in general but with their desire for a specific (and, in my opinion, deeply flawed) implementation where they have an ability to read these messages. While law enforcement might be happy with a system that requires a warrant or some other paperwork, the US federal government appears to be demanding unfett…

> They didn't enjoy this level of access when people communicated by written letters nor when they spoke to each other over analog telephones.

I would think the appropriate comparison is neither of those, but rather "when people met in person". Usage of the internet today is much closer to what people did when meeting in person than when writing letters or even when talking on the phone, it is replacing a lot of direct face-to-face contact.

The demand to forbid E2E encryption is analogous to the demand that every citizen always has to make sure that the government can listen in to every personal conversation they have, and not only right now, but retroactively.

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