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Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

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Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#1

Post by rahuldottech »

Also, how do you respond when someone brings up concerns of E2EE platforms being used for child sexual abuse imagery or terrorism?

Keep in mind that these arguments have to be made to laypersons who aren't necessarily from the United States, and who don't usually have a lot of technical knowledge.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#2

Post by mikece »

Just because someone can abuse a thing doesn't make the thing bad, it makes the person who commits the abuse bad. We don't ban cars to fight drunk driving and we shouldn't eliminate the spirit of the 4th Amendment to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers and drug dealers. Even with E2E encrypted communications the fact that user A is communicating with user B, when, and for how long is knowable, and that metadata alone can be sufficient to get the warrants necessary to effect legal, invasive searches without disturbing the rights of everyone else.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#3

Post by prepend »

For me I think we will really get to a world where thought is augmented digitally in addition to just communication. My thoughts and my communications are private and just because it is possible to monitor them doesn’t mean it should. Mostly deontological as it’s wrong to invade privacy, but also utilitarian as to allow creativity and construction privacy is essential.

So I look at this through a lens of what would be allowed on my thoughts and speech. Would it be ok to read everyone’s mind to prevent a terrorist act? No because the damage caused is greater than the damage prevented. Not to mention it would most likely be used to charge for IP infraction or speeding tickets or some other banal infraction.

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#4

Post by maxaf »

mikece wrote: post #2

Just because someone can abuse a thing doesn't make the thing bad, it makes the person who commits the abuse bad. We don't ban cars to fight drunk driving and we shouldn't eliminate the spirit of the 4th Amendment to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers and drug dealers. Even with E2E encrypted communications the fact that user A is communicating with user B, when, and for how long is knowable,…

[flagged]

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#6

Post by tobylane »

maxaf wrote: post #4
mikece wrote: post #2

Just because someone can abuse a thing doesn't make the thing bad, it makes the person who commits the abuse bad. We don't ban cars to fight drunk driving and we shouldn't eliminate the spirit of the 4th Amendment to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers and drug dealers. Even with E2E encrypted communications the fact that user A is communicating with user B, when, and for how long is knowable,…

[flagged]

Guns are directly linked to the actions of those bad actors. A private tunnel of communication is not so directly linked to the actions of child abusers (nor the images they share on these platforms).

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#8

Post by asdkhadsj »

maxaf wrote: post #4
mikece wrote: post #2

Just because someone can abuse a thing doesn't make the thing bad, it makes the person who commits the abuse bad. We don't ban cars to fight drunk driving and we shouldn't eliminate the spirit of the 4th Amendment to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers and drug dealers. Even with E2E encrypted communications the fact that user A is communicating with user B, when, and for how long is knowable,…

[flagged]

I see these comparisons made so, so frequently and it bothers me. Guns are not the same as encryption or cars. Yet they're so often made in apples to apples comparisons that it's mind boggling to me.

Weapons are uniquely special in that they are specifically designed to maim and kill. Via defense or justified actions is irrelevant; it's a tool of war. Arguably, if there was E2E software that was specifically designed to maim and kill it might be received in a similar manner as guns.

I'm not saying guns don't have legitimate uses or the right to ownership in the hands of legal, sane owners.

You don't think if people started using impaling spike strips for the front of cars that there might be similar discussions about banning said strips?

Many who advocate for tighter gun control make exceptions to hunting rifles. Those very clearly have a use other than the death of humans. Could they be abused? Certainly. But tools can be abused all over the place.

However when someone takes a weapon, designed for slaughtering, and slaughters with it.. well, can you blame people for questioning the validity of owning these items?

Re: Ask HN: What are your arguments in favor of end-to-end encryption?

#9

Post by insomniacity »

An argument I saw recently that I liked:

“Because a citizenry’s freedoms are interdependent, to surrender your own privacy is really to surrender everyone’s. Saying that you don’t need or want privacy because you have nothing to hide is to assume that no-one should have or could have to hide anything.”

So while I'm not currently rebelling against my government, I'm sure as hell glad the protestors in Hong Kong can get their hands on E2E encrypted chat.

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