Live data from Hacker News

Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

gridsagegames.com

111–118 of 118 posts

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#112
Aging thread by now, but had to chime in with some clarifications as an indie dev dealing with similar issues, to respond to those saying stuff like 'you're a bad dev if your app isn't 64-bit by now'. I am a company of 1 humbly maintaining a cross platform app that's been around long enough to predate the 64-bit era. It's about 70%/30% Windows/Mac sales. When the majority of machines out there became 64-bit years ago, I happily optimized the components of my app that stood to benefit from 64-bit, such as intensive media processing tasks and other bottlenecks. But since a lot of computing tasks just don't need what 64-bit offers, parts of my app that were working well enough using 32-bit components stayed that way, and users never knew the difference or cared because over the years I strategically targeted the areas to rewrite as 64-bit without having to reinvent the wheel and devote resources to rewriting everything.

Since the 64-bit x86 instruction set was implemented to sit on top of the legacy 32-bit one, it is literally impossible for x86 hardware to cease supporting 32-bit into the future. So we have Apple here making the choice to cease software support of this backward compatibility feature already baked into the cpu, to save a few bucks or whatever. There is no performance benefit to abandoning 32-bit. Your Mac won't be faster on Catalina because 32-bit support is gone, despite what Apple is trying to imply in their marketing, because the cpus they use are still built from the ground up to support 32-bit. A negligible-by-today's-standards amount of RAM and disk space used by the system will be conserved, but that's really it. So Apple, the wealthiest software company ever, has decided to stop funding software support of a feature already present in the hardware they are selling you at ungodly markups, thus screwing over both customers out of legacy app support, and indie devs with costly extra refactoring work that in many cases offers no perceivable benefits to end users. This is why it is infuriating to be an indie dev supporting Mac right now.

As for my specific case, my software, under the hood a combination of several 32-bit and 64-bit processes, still runs happily on Windows, and most of my customers are on Windows, particularly large organizations that purchase site licenses and sponsor new features or customization projects. But in order for it to be 100% 64-bit, so much of it would have to change due to old dependencies as to require rewriting a huge chunk of it from scratch. This is my technical debt to bear. When it became apparent a few years ago that Mac would phase out 32-bit support, I began work on a full 64-bit rewrite, but I've been sidetracked as customization projects and consulting gigs from Windows-only customers continued to pour in and with limited resources as a small company I had to choose to prioritize those projects which added tangible features to my software right now at the expense of making progress on the 64-bit rewrite. I continue to work on the rewrite project so that I can continue to support the Mac platform, but it sure feels like a whole lot of work to port features to 64-bit that won't have any noticeable improvement to end users! In the mean time I feel terrible that Mac users who upgrade won't be able to use my software until I get around to completing the 64-bit version. But it just never made sense for a company of my scale to devote resources to racing to complete a 64-bit rewrite for the sake of those 30% of sales. These are the kinds of choices that a small business must make and thus is the position I find myself in as an indie Mac developer.

I hope this provides an understandable real world answer to the question of "how can any app under active development in 2019 still be relying on 32-bit?".

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#113
post #23

Yikes. If you can't figure out how to make your code 64-bit safe, or how to make code signing work, you are effective requiring your users to give you root access. Completely unacceptable for a game.

In what way is lack of 64 bit support + lack of code signing equal to elevated permissions?

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#114
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine Steam doesn't allow Gatekeeper bypasses. Still, notarization is designed to be easy to script: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/notarizing_y... - so it really shouldn't be an issue.

The only issue is it can take an hour or more - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21110622 polling for the status to finalize would waste build minutes on your CI.

Can you hand it off to be notarized and then end that job, and have a hook to pick up when that's done?

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#115
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do these guys complain this much about releasing games on consoles too?

That’s a fundamentally different platform I think.

In some ways, it isn't that different; consoles are just computers with some platform-weirdness. But I do actually agree insofar as that I can reasonably target NT, Darwin, and Linux from one machine (so long as it's a mac or I'm willing to break the Apple EULA), but to target consoles, so far as I know, requires purchasing additional hardware.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#116
post #55
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also I heard that you need fairly new Mac hardware to actually use the notarization service. Now try to integrate it with your CI, because the feedback that the notarization is complete is sent via email. (FWIW: I don’t have first-hand experience, though I still have an Apple developer license. Probably won’t renew.)

I've scripted this for work, but it does have to run on a mac (for me a late 2013 Macbook pro), which would make it difficult to do in the cloud. There is a utility (written in Java) that you run through "xcrun" that can upload, check status, fetch and "staple" the result. It usually turns around within 15 minutes for me, but I haven't measured the exact time. (I'm just polling every five minutes.) Check the "log" fi…

Actually, that feels like a bigger issue: Does all of this have to run on a mac? That basically precludes build farms, since Apple doesn't make the xserve line anymore and doesn't play nice with virtualization. I guess you could build a farm of desktops...

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#117
post #89

As someone who recently worked in game dev I'm not sure why 32 bit was even a factor as 64 bit is likely your default target anyway - has been for awhile. So, killing 32 bit is not a real issue. Notorizing can be seen as just another cost of targeting a platform. So do it. You will need at least one machine anyway to do basic testing on. So use that. Get the cheapest imac or whatever you require. So, mac hardware isn…

I'm not a game dev but just as a developer I do think a lot of these assumptions are a little unfair. You can't call things "not a real issue" just because they're not a big issue to you. > ...64 bit is likely your default target anyway - has been for awhile. So, killing 32 bit is not a real issue. If you depend on 32-bit software, no, it is a real issue. Updating an app and dependencies to all be 64-bit can be a pre…

IE 5 is a ridiculous strawman example you bring up in bad faith to drive your point. You know its ridiculous because you specifically list an ancient version that is obviously a bad target. This does not refute what I wrote.

I can point to multiple bugs revealed just by having multiple platform support. Other devs I've spoken to have also had this experience. Different platforms have different tools available.

A computer worth $1600 is dwarfed by cost of business name, software tools, insurance, utilities etc etc. Art, sound etc also are much higher costs.

I'm a one man indie dev. I'm guessing I know a little bit more about this issue. Perhaps not. But I do manage to pay bills etc so I must know something.

Re: Sorry macOS users, but Apple has gone too far for some of us devs

#118

As someone who recently worked in game dev I'm not sure why 32 bit was even a factor as 64 bit is likely your default target anyway - has been for awhile. So, killing 32 bit is not a real issue. Notorizing can be seen as just another cost of targeting a platform. So do it. You will need at least one machine anyway to do basic testing on. So use that. Get the cheapest imac or whatever you require. So, mac hardware isn…

What surprises me is the fact that the author doesn't talk about the craziest of Apple's recent choices: the deprecation of OpenGL. This is much worse than the deprecation of 32 bit and, IMHO, it's just Apple giving up on being a relevant gaming platform. This, plus the lack of nvidia drivers and of support for Vulkan. All the small issues here show, together, that indeed Apple doesn't give a shit about gaming and ab…

Completely agree. These are real issues with MacOS and Apple. More generally, if you're writing productivity apps on iOS then Apple is also your competitor. Plenty of devs have warned me not to write iOS apps that line up with Apple's existing offerings.
Post reply on HN