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Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

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Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#341

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #254
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

> I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. They're not. A number of horrible things will happen as a result of pervasive end to end encryption. However. You have to run the numbers here. On the one hand, perhaps a bit more crime, some of which horrible. On the other hand, the privacy of everyone . It's a hard sell. Just picture a politician on live tel…

Anyone decently intelligent and motivated can utilize end-to-end encryption in myriad ways with relative ease. If anyone is going to organize a sufficiently dangerous security threat, they're not going to do it through unencrypted Facebook messages.

Sure, idiots do stuff like this all the time. Sure they get caught. But idiots usually get caught by other means, too. And you never catch all the idiots, there's just too many of them.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#342

Post by anon9001 »

mlindner wrote: post #314
anon9001 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All phones could be mandated to record audio/video at all times and stream it to government servers for archiving and processing, for example. And you could set up society so that you'd be useless without carrying your phone, as we're most of the way there already. Not streaming your complete data to the government would become a crime. All public places could be recorded in a similar way. If you combined it with sat…

Who watches the watchers? Who prevents the watchers from deleting footage/recordings? Unless you're genetically engineering humans to no longer have any desires, anyone can be bribed or blackmailed for the right price.

Other watchers would watch those watchers. Government officials would not be exempt from data collection. People would eventually learn that you can't bribe or blackmail because it's impossible to do without having it recorded and detected by surveillance. That's how our system of government works today, but the only people who get caught are those that leave evidence behind. If you use technology to ensure everyone creates tons of evidence, then everyone doing something illegal can be caught.

I'm not sure why I'm being so heavily downvoted, the only difference between the dystopian future that I describe and the system we have currently, is that the government isn't collecting and processing data on such a wide scale. If they collect more data, we will have more crimes solved and more privacy forfeited. If you take that to its logical extreme, we have full surveillance, no privacy, and no crime. I'd rather live in a world where we have some crime, but privacy and no surveillance, but I think it's far more likely we'll head in the opposite direction.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#344

Post by nutcracker46 »

End to end encryption is here to stay; it works! Anyone failing to use it to protect user privacy does not value user privacy.

Go ahead, Zuck, and make your messaging product second-rate. See how far Facebook and WhatsApp fall behind...

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#345

Post by tw04 »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #254
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far. It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills. Instead, ac…

> I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname. They're not. A number of horrible things will happen as a result of pervasive end to end encryption. However. You have to run the numbers here. On the one hand, perhaps a bit more crime, some of which horrible. On the other hand, the privacy of everyone . It's a hard sell. Just picture a politician on live tel…

>It's a hard sell. Just picture a politician on live television having to choose between having this cute little child being raped for years before they commit suicide (letting the perpetrators off the hook), or ramp up the surveillance a bit. Picture them choosing the rape.

But the argument doesn't even make sense. It makes the horrible assumption that pedophiles will continue using a service they know to be insecure. That's literally a provably false assumption. The second they realize it's insecure (which will take exactly one raid), they'll switch to something else.

And ALL of the above assumes that there are no criminal programmers and thus they have no ability to just write their own tools if there isn't something sitting on the shelf. We know with 100% certainty this is also a false assumption.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#347

Post by SquishyPanda23 »

posix_compliant wrote: post #114
saagarjha wrote: post #5

> We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety. Oh, so you’re asking for more end-to-end encryption? > While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content t…

99% of domestic disturbances happen in private homes. Should they put cameras there, too?

Ring is trying to do it

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/29/us/ring-cameras-police/inde...

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#350

Post by godelski »

thothamon wrote: post #315
godelski wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the two key things to remember are that "failure will happen" and Blackstone's principle. We have to, as a society, decide which direction we want to fail (modes of failure). We also have to decide what amount is acceptable (having 0 crime is a good goal, but we will never get there and need to be realistic). I think it is clear which way the founders of the country wanted failure to happen, which is Blacksto…

I agree with much of your argument, but what makes you say so confidently that we capture or punish almost all of the people who engage in child exploitation?

I'm going off of what is said in the article and determining if what is said matches what I expect (which is based off of Pareto). Also consider that the statement that the AG said is not countering FB's claim. So that's what gives me confidence. One side says "we capture 99%" and the opposition says doesn't disagree and uses a desperate statement. I think if FB was wrong then the AG would counter on that point.
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