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Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

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Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#101
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has a date been set for when IPv4 will stop being routed?

No, because the Internet is a voluntary system.

Very few companies would need to decide to not interconnect with IPv4 networks before IPv4 was effectively dead. Typically, though, there's a process that they would go through before making that move. That's what I was asking about. Has anybody floated a date for IPv4 death?

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#102
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is 'they', and under what authority? If you're thinking about RIPE or ARIN, legacy block allocations predate those organisations even existing. They have no rights over that space. At the same time, IANA has delegated 'future' (read: sometime in the past, but not until after those legacy allocations) responsibility to the RIRs (ARIN, RIPE, APNIC, LACNIC, AFRINIC). Finally, how do you determine whether or not spac…

Not sure on who "they" is, to be honest. But if/when ipv4s become very difficult to obtain, lots of potential "theys" will likely emerge. Powerful companies and governments won't just shrug it off. Similar to eminent domain maybe.

At some point the cost of doing all of what you mention is more than the cost of NAT64/46 infrastructure to enable the problem to actually be fixed for more than a couple of years at a time.

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#103
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong interpretation: the linked chart shows client-side adoption among Google users In practice today IPv6 is a kind of high functionality NAT for consumer devices. A more interesting statistic would be server-side adoption.

"Google users" is approximately everybody, and surely client-side adoption is what drives server-side adoption?

> "Google users" is approximately everybody

perhaps every 'body', but not at all every 'device'..

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#104

IPv4 runout can be be pushed far into the future with DNS SRV records. This is a preventable emergency. Why it hasn't be included in HTTP/2|3 is mind boggling.

HTTP/1.1 and forward includes name based virtual hosting (brought through TLS with the SNI field) and it's been extremely widely used. Seems mind boggling to suddenly want to change that for no additional gain.

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not that it was a bad idea in the first place ?

Can I assume based on your username why you don't like IPv6?

No id have used my old X.400 Address C=UK CN="Firstname" :-)

One of the Perks of having Root on your countries ADMD - of and Super Root (level 7) on some of the systems

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that basically the only difference between IPv4 and IPv6 is the number of bytes in an address. Lately I've been learning a lot more about IPv6 and there are a TON of subtle differences in the protocols that matter if you're operating a large network. Random example I recently read about: the way link-local addresses are generated. [0] Not that this excuses inaction, but it does give me more empathy f…

What happened is they changed a bunch of things about the protocol because they thought it would be a very forced adoption. Instead, it caused lagging adoption because of all the changes. If IPv6 was just IPv4 with extra addresses, the adoption rate would have been very quick.

I hear this a lot but being in the networking but the only 3 complaints I actually hear in the field are "those addresses look a lot harder to type out", "our device doesn't support IPv6 (at all/fully)", and "can we hold off on that project another year or will things start breaking before then?". Not once has any of the protocol additions that always get talked about been a stopping point. I finally got the opportunity to roll it out on some of our guest wireless networks, it was literally a matter of assigning some space, flipping some settings on, and making sure Google still loads.

Ironically the techs did complain about the addresses looking funny in the Firewall logging.

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#107
post #66

What's going on with IPv6 that is preventing it from alleviating the IPv4 scarcity?

IMHO, corporate IT: "what's the business case for this?". It could be cheaper to buy IPv4 than have a company-wide (dual-stack?) IPv6 rollout: * http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190815_the_2019_ipv4_market_...

A million times this. A lot of "ivory tower" style conversation go on about "there would too many changes", "it has design flaws", "it should have been backwards interoperable from day 1" but at all of the companies I've been a network architect for the only thing that was ever actually a holdback on a v6 rollout has been the business asking why they would do it now when they'll still need v4 after and v4 works at the moment.

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#108
post #32

I'm curious if there are people here that have migrated their home network to IPv6 only, and if yes, what are the challenges encountered? I suspect the biggest problem is that there still are many websites that only have IPv4

As others have said NAT64 is your friend. Other than that I never thought about it since the day I flipped, it's not really as big a change as people make it out to be.

Literally like the difference between HTTP/1.1 and HTTP/2. Yeah not all sites use HTTP/2 yet but how often would you notice if you didn't go looking for it?

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#109
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the mobile telco IPv4 blocks, or lack thereof, you'll see that NAT is here, heavily, almost ubiqitously, as carrier NAT. It's destroyed the network functionality of mobile telecommunications (lacking routable ipv4) and made them essentially dumb terminals lacking any ability to participate in the 'net. They can only consume other's services.

I don't know how I feel about this. IPv6 is the obvious answer, but maybe some kind of NAT is warranted for devices that tend not to have firewalls? If each LTE terminal has a publicly routable IP, unless it's statefully firewalled, any random Internet user who can figure out my IP can run up my data bill, or packet me and inflict a Denial of Service. I remember long ago, some mobile operators in the U.S. were assign…

You don't need to NAT to statefully allow inbound traffic. How the two became forever entangled is past me as technically depending what network you are sourcing from NAT doesn't actually prevent what you describe without also having the actual stateful firewalling enabled.

Taken another way: it's easier to statefully filter incoming flows (FW) than it is to statefully map flows (NAT) both from an implementation and operation perspective.

Re: Update: Approaching IPv4 Run-out

#110
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple have made it a hard requirement for apps to operate correctly on IPv6-only connections for a few years now. If your app doesn't work unless it's on IPv4, Apple will reject it.

Pretty sure that doesn't mean all distant API endpoints need ipv6 addresses. Just means no hardcoded ipv4 or incompatible API calls. So that ipv6 to ipv4 gateways work. So, the app is ready, but apple isn't dictating much about your backend.

Apple's mandate happened because a couple US Telecoms asked them to. The US has plenty of cell towers that are IPv6-only, and at least a couple US carriers are now IPv6-only or IPv6-primarily, with more planning to switch. All the carriers have big NAT64 gateways of course to keep the internet from entirely breaking, but that's still an avoidable bottleneck from a backend perspective. Apple themselves may not be dictating what the backend is doing, but they are doing a lot of Happy Eyeballs [1] tests on your backend and IPv6 without NAT64 proxies in the way is likely the fastest experience for a lot of real mobile users today.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Eyeballs

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