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France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

bloomberg.com

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Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#61

Post by raverbashing »

cm2187 wrote: post #51
raverbashing wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you build a system you can query for any face and get the identity True, but you can't. Facebook can't. That's (one of the reasons) they suggest tagging amongst your friends, not amongst all of FB people. You can identify one person (with a certain degree of certainty) against a certain range of candidates. Or you can search for one person on a small sample of images (100s or 1000s of images). So yes you can hav…

True, but that's not different from fingerprints. Fingerprints have collisions. That doesn't mean that it isn't a highly effective tool.

Yes, the analogy is valid. Hence why fingerprints are "good"/"very good" at making sure the person presenting the fingerprint is who they claim they are, but for other purposes, not so much.

But they be better than face recognition at "search at a DB" tasks (especially if you have multiple fingers)

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#62

Post by JeanMarcS »

cm2187 wrote: post #23

These things always start with an innocuous purpose. The French national DNA database initially was a sexual assault database, to be able to identify rapists. Now your DNA is collected even if you are arrested in a demonstration and never charged. It is like laws. When a new law is on the table, the question is never about the reasonable use of that law, it is all about how it can be abused in the worst possible case…

> Now your DNA is collected even if you are arrested in a demonstration and never charged.

Do you have any (reliable) source confirming that ?

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#63

Post by [deleted] »

Tade0 wrote: post #31

Why not have banks act as identity providers? We have this in Poland and it works great - as a contractor I have to send certain tax documents every month and I only ever authenticate via my bank and associated 2FA. The other method stopped working after I lost the password and discovered that reset didn't actually send an email like it should have.

[deleted]

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#64

Post by icebraining »

mieseratte wrote: post #60
icebraining wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not an incremental step. The French government already had that database. This is just using the data they already had in a new way.

> But it's not an incremental step. The French government already had that database. This is just using the data they already had in a new way. Yes, it is a new, small, incremental step! This is introducing a new procedure, a procedure they can change later to move the needle forward. This is the whole point, doing small incremental steps. Each of which appears rather banal and unobjectionable. That you don't care is…

Anything can change later, even removing a procedure could be a prelude to adding a new, more invasive one.

An incremental step requires an increment. Nothing gets incremented here. The French government already had this data, and already used it to biometrically identify people. The only thing this inches toward is to a reduction in the number of public functionaries. This is the automated checkout system for State services, nothing more.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#65

Post by cm2187 »

JeanMarcS wrote: post #62
cm2187 wrote: post #23

These things always start with an innocuous purpose. The French national DNA database initially was a sexual assault database, to be able to identify rapists. Now your DNA is collected even if you are arrested in a demonstration and never charged. It is like laws. When a new law is on the table, the question is never about the reasonable use of that law, it is all about how it can be abused in the worst possible case…

> Now your DNA is collected even if you are arrested in a demonstration and never charged. Do you have any (reliable) source confirming that ?

https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/06/22/la-france-e...

Le fichier Fnaeg, créé en 1998, conserve les empreintes génétiques des personnes condamnées ou « mises en cause » dans la plupart des crimes et délits relatifs aux atteintes aux biens et aux personnes, du crime contre l’humanité aux simples violences, en passant par le trafic de drogue et le proxénétisme.

Translation: The Fnaeg database, created in 1998, stores DNA profiles of people sentenced or questioned, in most of the crimes and offenses related to goods or people, from crime against humanity to a simple violence, including drug trafficking or procuring.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#66

Post by mieseratte »

icebraining wrote: post #64
mieseratte wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's not an incremental step. The French government already had that database. This is just using the data they already had in a new way. Yes, it is a new, small, incremental step! This is introducing a new procedure, a procedure they can change later to move the needle forward. This is the whole point, doing small incremental steps. Each of which appears rather banal and unobjectionable. That you don't care is…

Anything can change later, even removing a procedure could be a prelude to adding a new, more invasive one. An incremental step requires an increment. Nothing gets incremented here. The French government already had this data, and already used it to biometrically identify people. The only thing this inches toward is to a reduction in the number of public functionaries. This is the automated checkout system for State…

> Nothing gets incremented here.

People's expectations and willingnesses are moved forward. Overton Window.

> This is the automated checkout system for State services, nothing more.

Look beyond the superficial, at larger issues.

Anyone can shoot any idea down by reducing it to a simple, innocuous sounding concept to make the other look ridiculous.

Claiming "there's nothing here" is wrong, saying "I recognize the potential for bad, but choose to accept that risk" is a different story.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#67

Post by strictnein »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #5

This is a rather poor and click-baity article. According to the French government's page on this system [1] (in French): The system is an app that generates login details to allow online access to (public?) services. You install the app on your smartphone. It uses NFC (I suppose) to read your picture (also other details?) from your passport's chip, and stores it locally on the phone. It then uses this to perform faci…

> "This is a rather poor and click-baity article."

It's Bloomberg. They get almost everything tech related wrong.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#68

Post by mytailorisrich »

cm2187 wrote: post #65
JeanMarcS wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now your DNA is collected even if you are arrested in a demonstration and never charged. Do you have any (reliable) source confirming that ?

https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/06/22/la-france-e... Le fichier Fnaeg, créé en 1998, conserve les empreintes génétiques des personnes condamnées ou « mises en cause » dans la plupart des crimes et délits relatifs aux atteintes aux biens et aux personnes, du crime contre l’humanité aux simples violences, en passant par le trafic de drogue et le proxénétisme. Translation: The Fnaeg database, created in 1998,…

Neither that article nor the actual law put the threshold as low as 'questioned' for DNA to be stored in that database though DNA may indeed be collected to be matched against it.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#69

Post by JeanMarcS »

cm2187 wrote: post #65
JeanMarcS wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now your DNA is collected even if you are arrested in a demonstration and never charged. Do you have any (reliable) source confirming that ?

https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/06/22/la-france-e... Le fichier Fnaeg, créé en 1998, conserve les empreintes génétiques des personnes condamnées ou « mises en cause » dans la plupart des crimes et délits relatifs aux atteintes aux biens et aux personnes, du crime contre l’humanité aux simples violences, en passant par le trafic de drogue et le proxénétisme. Translation: The Fnaeg database, created in 1998,…

So it's not only sexual assault (that's what surprised me in the first place), ok, thanks for all clarifications.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#70

Post by icebraining »

mieseratte wrote: post #66
icebraining wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything can change later, even removing a procedure could be a prelude to adding a new, more invasive one. An incremental step requires an increment. Nothing gets incremented here. The French government already had this data, and already used it to biometrically identify people. The only thing this inches toward is to a reduction in the number of public functionaries. This is the automated checkout system for State…

> Nothing gets incremented here. People's expectations and willingnesses are moved forward. Overton Window. > This is the automated checkout system for State services, nothing more. Look beyond the superficial, at larger issues. Anyone can shoot any idea down by reducing it to a simple, innocuous sounding concept to make the other look ridiculous. Claiming "there's nothing here" is wrong, saying "I recognize the pote…

> People's expectations and willingnesses are moved forward.

No, they aren't.

> Look beyond the superficial, at larger issues.

I'm looking at the larger issues. I just disagree with you. I don't think you have made your case.

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