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Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

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Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#61

Post by vixen99 »

quixoticaxolotl wrote: post #59
mruniverse wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We laude past figures with our current criteria for acceptable behavior. Why not criticize?

I would argue both lauding and condemning are problematic practices in most cases. My history professor in college used to cite the old adage that 'the past is a different country', meaning that one shouldn't pass judgment on the practices of the past just as one wouldn't pass judgment on foreign customs. From a practical standpoint, withholding value judgment is part of intellectual diligence - it allows us to draw…

LP Harley wrote "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” at the beginning of his novel 'The Go-Between' with a brilliant film version in 1971.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#63

Post by geofft »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #58
geofft wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather live in a world with meaningful public discussion of controversial topics than a world with statues, if that's really the choice we face.

You don't think those statues catalyse the discussion?

No - they tend to catalyze a different discussion about the statues themselves, they encourage emotionally entrenched positions (the whole point of a statue is to stir up emotion), and they do nothing for discussion about the people or events without a statue.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#64

Post by okcando »

rapsey wrote: post #20
mruniverse wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We laude past figures with our current criteria for acceptable behavior. Why not criticize?

Because we laud them for their undeniable achievements. Criticizing with current criteria of acceptable behavior is just an ad hominem.

It's a seldom-acknowledged fact but ad hominems run both ways.

If saying that he can't have been that good for his bad actions is an ad hominem, then saying he can't have been that bad for his good actions is surely also an ad hominem.

For however we define good and bad.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#65

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

geofft wrote: post #63
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think those statues catalyse the discussion?

No - they tend to catalyze a different discussion about the statues themselves, they encourage emotionally entrenched positions (the whole point of a statue is to stir up emotion), and they do nothing for discussion about the people or events without a statue.

I think that’s debatable. I don’t think you can reasonably argue that constructive discussion can’t be had in the presence of statues. I also think people are going to be emotional when discussing controversial historical figures whether the statues are there or not.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#67

Post by beerandt »

rapsey wrote: post #3

This recent trend of taking down past figures because they do not meet current criteria for acceptable behavior in society is disturbing. It's like people are trying to erase lessons from the past.

Martin Luther argued for the holocaust after starting the reformation.

Nelson Mandela was involved in the terror attacks that burned political enemies alive.

Abraham Lincoln despised the black population (certainly moreso than Robert E Lee) and argued against any steps toward social or civic equality.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#68

Post by beerandt »

nabla9 wrote: post #50
Roritharr wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the TILs that I could gladly have skipped. I mean, sometimes you'd rather have a wrong, but more peaceful picture of the world, than live with the impression that literally everyone out has a very dark side to them...

Ignorance is bliss. If you want to be an adult, you must take the red pill. You can't weigh person by subtracting the negative from positive. Gandhi was still a great man despite his failings.

Not specific to Gandhi, but I prefer to accept the fact that bad people can accomplish good things worth remembering. And that's OK.

And equally, good people can be vilified for choosing the best of two bad options.

Also, we put too much blind faith in historians.

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#69

Post by AwfulCaptain »

beerandt wrote: post #68
nabla9 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignorance is bliss. If you want to be an adult, you must take the red pill. You can't weigh person by subtracting the negative from positive. Gandhi was still a great man despite his failings.

Not specific to Gandhi, but I prefer to accept the fact that bad people can accomplish good things worth remembering. And that's OK. And equally, good people can be vilified for choosing the best of two bad options. Also, we put too much blind faith in historians.

[dead]

Re: Gandhi Is Deeply Revered, but His Attitudes on Race and Sex Are Under Scrutiny

#70

Post by growlist »

amundsentb wrote: post #51
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

somehow i feel it's the same side. The "establishment" uses whatever is the trendy means. He is a human, not a saint. It's good that people point out stupid things he believed in/did/said - it only humanizes Gandhi.

Can we not be allowed to have heroes without someone mentioning that they go to the toilet the same as us?

I notice this also. I wonder whether it's part of the general policy that seems to be prevalent of keeping the public in an ongoing state of confusion.
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