Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#901

Post by coldtea » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 11:18 AM UTC

phaus wrote: post #827

coldtea wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sure... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-shoots... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-employee-shoots-himself_n... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-accidently-shoots-self-wife... (I won't even mention the circular argument in the parent comment)

Gun owners accidentally shooting themselves means there's a 100% chance they were doing something that following the most basic gun safety controls that everyone knows about would make impossible. You can infer from this that those people were not responsible gun owners. Link 1: Guy said it was unloaded. Gun safety rule #1 is treat every gun likes its loaded and clear every gun when someone hands it to you so you kno…

>Gun owners accidentally shooting themselves means there's a 100% chance they were doing something that following the most basic gun safety controls that everyone knows about would make impossible. You can infer from this that those people were not responsible gun owners.

My point was that the supposed "responsible gun owners" also get it wrong.

Else it's more like a No True Scotsman (where a "responsible gun owner would never accidentally mess with their gun, because anybody who does such things is by definition not a responsible gun owner").

If a cop showcasing "gun safety", an NRA employee, and other such cases with more experience and more training than the average gun owning person, are not "responsible gun owner", then I don't know who we can trust to be. And why we should listen to anybody saying "with me it's OK, I'm responsible". After all that's what the cop was saying before he shot himself...

>Its disingenuous to use examples of people doing incredibly reckless things in order to argue that "responsible gun owners" regularly shoot themselves or others.

It's disingenuous to construct an abstract category of "responsible gun owners" vs the "unresponsible" rest, when even the self-proclaimed "responsible" owners, and even safety/gun experts, mess up.

What we do know is that gun owners regularly shoot themselves or others. Even some claiming to be "responsible" (which is something that all do, only an idiot would claim to be irresponsible or admit to it).

Not to mention the whole point is moot. Even if "responsible gun owners" were 100% issue free, the law doesn't give guns to people who are "responsible gun owners" only, it gives them to anybody who passes some basic checks and wants to buy one. Nor does the law follow up with people in their homes to see if they really follow that "responsible gun operation" that they say they do.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#902

Post by netsharc » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 11:35 AM UTC

SimbaOnSteroids wrote: post #658

takamh wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. This isn't Reddit where any average Joe thinks whataboutism is the answer to any evidence they don't agree with.

Yes it is, the treatment of children at the border is also horrendous, it also has literally nothing to do with china and ethics.

You claim the organ harvesting means the whole government can't claim to have ethics, I think that's just stupid absolutism (the world doesn't work with Boolean logic), and my counter-example is to ask if the US government can claim to be ethical given that we know they've put toddlers in cages.

I can probably give out examples of "unethical" behavior for every government on this planet, and then no one will be ethical any more. What then?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#903

Post by whatitdobooboo » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 12:37 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #639

whatitdobooboo wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Federal elections are not the only things that matter - state and local decisions have an impact. Obviously not perfect - even with the money affecting government we have the ABILITY to change that over some time period, and lobbying in some places can help. I am unsure about what exactly you are complaining about.

https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-cable... > I am unsure about what exactly you are complaining about. I wasn't. I was refuting common propaganda about the wonders of the United States. How can we fix any of our problems if we don't admit to ourselves that they exist?

Fair enough - perhaps I should've simply said that in my opinion, reducing American ability to affect government down to % of population each individual represents isn't the best way to approach our problems

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#904

Post by mytailorisrich » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #852

mytailorisrich wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is of course to downvote to hell any dissenting comment in a debate about democratic values and censorship in China...

> The irony is of course to downvote to hell any dissenting comment in a debate about democratic values and censorship in China... Please don't confuse PR posts conducted by China's 50 cent army lauding absurdities such as the virtues of a totalitarian regime as "dissenting comment".

Please stop assuming that any comment that does not share your opinion on China is fake.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#905

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#906

Post by ethbro » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

galkk wrote: post #882

ethbro wrote: post #881

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation for 5.56 vs .223? Fact: The external case and bullet dimensions are functionally identical Fact: The chamber dimensions in respective rifles are close enough, +/- machining tolerances, that "very dangerous" is inaccurate fearmongering Fact: 5.56 max pressures exceed .223 pressures (to the tune of ~12.5%), but both are subject to the vagaries of exact loading So while it's not a good idea to fire 5.56 out of…

> Citation for 5.56 vs .223? > Curious where you're getting your information? The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Unsafe-Arms-and... page 8: In Firearms Chambered For: 223 Remington Do Not Use These Cartridges: 5.56mm Military --- Also literally first entry in FAQ on SAAMI site: https://saami.org/faqs/#ammunition-firearm-chambered Can I use 5.56x45mm,…

5.56 isn't SAAMI-standardized in the first place, so they legally shouldn't say anything other than their wording there. Which you also see on many .223 rifles as you noted.

But that's a legal perspective.

From an engineering perspective, you can certainly shoot it.

With risks somewhere between "It will behave exactly like .223" and "It will explosively disassemble your gun."

But we're not talking about rocket science here.

Machining dimensions / tolerances + chamber / barrel design + round pressure = risk

All of which are variable enough in practice to make this a grey area.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#907

Post by qbaqbaqba » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 1:50 PM UTC

woutr_be wrote: post #128

dx87 wrote: post #6

Not to defend what the police have been doing overall during this protest, but in this specific incident you can see the protestors beating a police officer on the ground, and the protestor who got shot was swinging a metal pipe at the police officer that shot him.

I've been fairly critical of protestors before, but in this instance, you can see the police going in for a fight, already heavily outnumbered. I'm not sure what they expected to happen, but the officer drew his gun almost instantly and shot a high school kid at point blank range. There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors, and as soon as they realized protestors weren't havi…

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=kVZq_1569989463 They run to save one of their own being beaten to death with pipes and hammers.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#908

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

justaguyhere wrote: post #709

Saw some of the videos and reports, it is awful. One thing I don't understand - these cops are also from HK, correct? The protestors are fighting for the cops rights too, correct? If that is true, what is going on in the mind of a cop who is beating an unarmed protestor? Or are these cops from mainland China?

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#909

Post by mytailorisrich » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #406

baddox wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What policies does China have which are expansionist?

Wanting to take over Taiwan, and trying to take over the South China Sea by building artificial islands and using them as military bases, for starters.

> Wanting to take over Taiwan,

This is as expansionist as the American Civil War... I.e. it's not expansionist but really a 'domestic' matter.

There is big amount of propaganda from Western media on this topic as well: If Taiwan had been in a position to fight the communists to retake the mainland the US would have supplied help and call this 'liberation' of the mainland. But of course any plan of the communists to complete the takeover of the country by getting their hands on Taiwan is labelled 'expansionist' and 'a threat to security and stability'.

Same old games...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#910

Post by phaus » Wed, Oct 02, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #901

phaus wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun owners accidentally shooting themselves means there's a 100% chance they were doing something that following the most basic gun safety controls that everyone knows about would make impossible. You can infer from this that those people were not responsible gun owners. Link 1: Guy said it was unloaded. Gun safety rule #1 is treat every gun likes its loaded and clear every gun when someone hands it to you so you kno…

> Gun owners accidentally shooting themselves means there's a 100% chance they were doing something that following the most basic gun safety controls that everyone knows about would make impossible. You can infer from this that those people were not responsible gun owners. My point was that the supposed "responsible gun owners" also get it wrong. Else it's more like a No True Scotsman (where a "responsible gun owner…

The examples you gave were all extreme cases of gross negligence.

You're feigning ignorance and acting as if they are highly trained people dealing with incredible complexity and unmitigatable danger. Its as simple as it sounds. They pointed loaded guns at other people and/or themselves. Its really easy not to do it 100% of the time. Everyone knows its not ok whether they use guns on a regular basis or not.

Everyone should be able to recognize the unusual amount of irresponsibility they showed. You pretending they were above average because they had gun related jobs doesn't make it so.

The No True Scotsman fallacy doesn't apply. Its a form of unfair gatekeeping. That's not the case here. These people were ignoring everything about gun safety so its perfectly fair to say they don't fall into the category of people that are responsible.

Your lack of trust that anyone can be responsible with a gun is a separate issue. You should be able to recognize by the actions that led to the shootings that these people are not experts.