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Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

arstechnica.com

201–210 of 456 posts

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#201

> DNS over HTTPS means ISPs can’t spy on their users The ISP can still do a reverse look up of the IP address to see where the traffic is going.

reverse lookups for things like AWS hosted or cloudflare hosted sites would be a miserably futile effort.

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's plans usually have carefully laid out technical justifications, and are mostly kinda boringly/obviously good, like QUIC/HTTP3. That you're usually skeptical of any plan coming from Google suggests that your skepticism is miscalibrated.

Google's technical justifications are usually pathetically self-serving. My favorite example: Why have they not yet removed cookies from HTTP? There are obvious improvements to privacy if we switch to server-managed sessions chosen by user-provided identities, and get rid of cookies, but it would frustrate Google's tracking of us, so it can't happen.

> Why have they not yet removed cookies from HTTP?

Browser vendors generally try not to break millions of webpages overnight.

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if VPN over Tor (or Tor over VPN) increases anonymity then why is it the popular advice on the Net is not to do it?

I mean routing traffic to Tor entry guards through VPN services. The Tor Project does indeed not recommend that. They argue that using a VPN service is risky, because it can log everything. Where access to entry guards is blocked, they recommend using bridges (of one sort or another) run by Tor volunteers. I don't agree with that argument. Because ISPs can already do that. And for most people, their ISP is far more l…

It seems you take your privacy very seriously. But isn't it futile? I mean, the common layman response to privacy issues is something on the lines of "I'm not a criminal terrorist so what do I care". They have a point, the individual doesn't really bear direct consequences of losing privacy (unless he is a terrorist, criminal etc). The privacy issue is a social one, only when masses of individuals are spied upon, then nasty stuff may happen. So while your efforts are serious I'm wondering what is their point. I don't see any solution for this surveillance society we ended up with other than regulations through our government representatives.

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's plans usually have carefully laid out technical justifications, and are mostly kinda boringly/obviously good, like QUIC/HTTP3. That you're usually skeptical of any plan coming from Google suggests that your skepticism is miscalibrated.

Here's a twitter thread worth reading, from the former VP of the Firefox group: https://twitter.com/johnath/status/1116871238922776576 It's easy to make proposals that incrementally increase user security while simultaneously increasing one's own ability to consolidate and exploit user data. Technical appeal needs to be evaluated with a simultaneous critical eye to social impact (QUIC is a perfect example -- it outco…

> developing nations -- but of course, Google doesn't care about those audiences

Do you have a citation for your claims? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary: https://www.blog.google/technology/next-billion-users/ .

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#205
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean routing traffic to Tor entry guards through VPN services. The Tor Project does indeed not recommend that. They argue that using a VPN service is risky, because it can log everything. Where access to entry guards is blocked, they recommend using bridges (of one sort or another) run by Tor volunteers. I don't agree with that argument. Because ISPs can already do that. And for most people, their ISP is far more l…

It seems you take your privacy very seriously. But isn't it futile? I mean, the common layman response to privacy issues is something on the lines of "I'm not a criminal terrorist so what do I care". They have a point, the individual doesn't really bear direct consequences of losing privacy (unless he is a terrorist, criminal etc). The privacy issue is a social one, only when masses of individuals are spied upon, the…

I don't think of myself as a criminal or terrorist. But then my moral code is fundamentally from Aleister Crowley. So I'm well aware of the possibility that others might consider me a criminal or terrorist.

Even if there were laws and regulations that better protected privacy, you couldn't count on that. You can't trust government agencies, because they stretch the limits, and outright lie about what they do.

I also do it because it's fun.

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#206

> the company has no plans to switch Chrome users to its own DNS servers. Meanwhile, the Chromecast inexplicably ignores DHCP/NDP-provided DNS servers and uses 8.8.8.8 for all queries.

Even worse - it will disable itself if it cannot connect to 8.8.8.8.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19170671

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#207
If this prevents ISPs from making even a penny on data mined from DNS queries of their users, even in an aggregated and anonymized manner then so be it because ISPs are supposed to be dumb pipes. And there is nothing creepier than someone mining what I search for. Just fulfill the contract of giving me the internet for my 75USD a month.

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that all US TLAs have (or could have) access to all data that my ISP logs (or could log). That's just how it is. Given government ~monopoly on force. And that's why I use VPN services. But the same is true for VPN services, regarding US and/or other TLAs. So I use nested VPN chains, to make it harder to get complete data. And when it really matters, I add Tor to the mix. Even if it's heavily infiltrated by U…

So if VPN over Tor (or Tor over VPN) increases anonymity then why is it the popular advice on the Net is not to do it?

Usually because it is very slow to do so.

And anything that likes a persisted connection is likely to get a lot of connection resets. Like websockets (slack) or irc

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#209
post #114
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why someone who knows how to do any of that, would think it is a good idea or go along with implementing that. The shitbirds who actually want to do this type of thing are not smart enough to execute it.

Personally I have absolutely zero qualms with implementing any system to collect mass analytics. I just don’t give a shit, at these scales users are cattle.

given the volume of data, i don't care as much on an individual level since each person is a drop in an ocean, but knowledge is power, and this is too much knowledge for ISPs, advertisers, and government agencies.

Re: Big ISPs aren’t happy about Google’s plans for encrypted DNS

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why you'd think direct to the root DNS servers would be worse than using your ISPs servers. Using the root servers means you get DNSSEC which would prevent the greatest threats, hijacking and injection.

There is virtually no DNSSEC deployed on any major sites on the Internet and, because DNSSEC is a terrible protocol, it's unlikely there ever will be. I'm a broken record on this; you can just search "author:tptacek DNSSEC" in the bar below to get lots of different reasons why. The most important thing for this thread though is that DNSSEC provides zero privacy and, in ordinary deployments (where you talk to a namese…

I don't think DNSSEC itself is likely to ever win. But it does have an additional dimension that makes it a better foundation for privacy than DoH. DoH is strictly transport layer security, meaning it still relies on a trusted third party (Mozilla or Google or whomever) to not vacuum your requests. Whereas if records are signed, they can be sent laterally between mutually untrusting peers, including bulk broadcasts, etc.
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