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Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

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Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#31

Post by wildduck »

There are academic researchers have written about this topic:

Amy Benjamin: The Many Faces of Secrecy https://ssrn.com/abstract=3038640

"Political secrecy in the United States has never been more studied – and less understood – than it is today. This irony is due in large part to the slippery nature of the phenomenon: Secrecy presents in different guises depending on the area of governmental activity under consideration. In the classified world of the U.S. national security state, secrecy results from affirmative governmental acts designed to enforce a sharp distinction between official and public knowledge...."

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#32

Post by no_opinions »

jessaustin wrote: post #27
boomboomsubban wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your eyes, "probably better than China" is the optimum?

If USA government employees are more accountable than China government employees, China wins!

I doubt US Department of Agriculture or Department of Education operate abroad or have human rights issues to FOIA, you can try.

> If USA government employees are more accountable than China government employees, China wins!

"Transparency and accountability in foreign policy/information gathering only applies to the country with a FOIA system conveniently available and uses english!"

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#33

Post by Spooky23 »

pmiller2 wrote: post #5

Great article. It brings back to mind a question I had recently: what gives the federal government, specifically the executive branch, the power to classify information at all? I know there are laws and executive orders that say they can do that, but I’m wondering what the ultimate authority derives from in the Constitution. If it’s not a simple explanation, are there any scholarly legal articles I can look at?

Its a combination of common law and executive privilege.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#34

Post by _iyig »

zby wrote: post #9
readhn wrote: post #2

To better understand this organization and its inner workings i highly recommend the book "Overthrow" by Stephen Kinzer.

How about "Legacy of Ashes"? https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-History-Tim-Weiner/dp/03...

Came here to post this. I cannot recommend this book highly enough. For one thing, the quality of the author’s research speaks for itself:

“The book is based on more than 50,000 documents, primarily from the archives of the CIA, and hundreds of interviews with CIA veterans, including ten Directors of Central Intelligence.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Ashes_(book)

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#35

Post by mch82 »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #30
pmiller2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvote for trying, but executive privilege isn't quite it, IMO. All that does is protect the papers and communications of government officials in a way that makes them less accessible to the courts. State secrets privilege[0] is closer, but not quite it. All that does is allow the executive to say in court "sorry, that's classified, state secrets privilege," and have certain evidence excluded. It doesn't really get t…

The federal government has the power to classify information because it owns it. The primary purpose of a state is to preserve itself. The ability to control access to secrets is critical to this. It's a bit like asking "What gives the government the right to execute the laws?" Because that's what it's meant to do.

That’s not the primary purpose of government in the United States. And that’s not how government derives the right to execute laws in the United States.

We govern ourselves. The government is given the right to execute laws by the people who vote. The Bill of Rights clarified that any other rights are reserved by the people.

Additionally, most federal information is public domain and owned by the people. That’s why Freedom of Information Act requests are effective.

Freedom isn’t free and things might not always be this way if we don’t protect our freedoms.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#36

Post by eggsthedev »

Aloha wrote: post #28
nexuist wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With enough turnover in some key positions, a future whistleblower may just find their legitimate complaint buried. Couldn't you say this has already happened with e.g. Snowden?

Did Snowden try to go they official channels? I don't think he did, Snowden (mostly rightly) decided to bypass the existing reporting systems.

He didn't, and I recall that Snowden was motivated to do so outside the reporting systems after he saw the Director of National Intelligence straight-up lie to Congress.

Snowden was pretty smart; it's quite a good thing that he chose to act in good faith.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#37

Post by vageli »

Aloha wrote: post #28
nexuist wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With enough turnover in some key positions, a future whistleblower may just find their legitimate complaint buried. Couldn't you say this has already happened with e.g. Snowden?

Did Snowden try to go they official channels? I don't think he did, Snowden (mostly rightly) decided to bypass the existing reporting systems.

> Did Snowden try to go they official channels? I don't think he did, Snowden (mostly rightly) decided to bypass the existing reporting systems.

I believe he was deterred from pursuing action through official channels after seeing how William Binney and other whistleblowers were treated.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#38

Post by closeparen »

pmiller2 wrote: post #5

Great article. It brings back to mind a question I had recently: what gives the federal government, specifically the executive branch, the power to classify information at all? I know there are laws and executive orders that say they can do that, but I’m wondering what the ultimate authority derives from in the Constitution. If it’s not a simple explanation, are there any scholarly legal articles I can look at?

Any organization can classify its information. Mundane corporate security policies have classification levels and different security controls required at each level. The government doesn't need explicit Constitutional justification for that any more than it needs Constitutional justification to buy toner cartridges or allocate vacation days.

Congress gives the federal government's classifications legal teeth with criminal statutes, i.e. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#39

Post by vageli »

mch82 wrote: post #35
HenryKissinger wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The federal government has the power to classify information because it owns it. The primary purpose of a state is to preserve itself. The ability to control access to secrets is critical to this. It's a bit like asking "What gives the government the right to execute the laws?" Because that's what it's meant to do.

That’s not the primary purpose of government in the United States. And that’s not how government derives the right to execute laws in the United States. We govern ourselves. The government is given the right to execute laws by the people who vote. The Bill of Rights clarified that any other rights are reserved by the people. Additionally, most federal information is public domain and owned by the people. That’s why F…

> That’s not the primary purpose of government in the United States. And that’s not how government derives the right to execute laws in the United States.

> We govern ourselves. The government is given the right to execute laws by the people who vote. The Bill of Rights clarified that any other rights are reserved by the people.

I agree with you in principle but in practice it seems the US has drifted far from its origins.

The US government has murdered at least one her own citizens without due process. The Constitution has been contorted around trade such that nearly everything can fall under federal purview (currently being tested in the states with marijuana, remember the CA raids?).

The government for all intents and purposes, seems to be putting self-preservation and perpetuation above all else, and has been for quite some time. I suspect _that_ was what the parent poster was getting at.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#40

Post by ianleeclark »

mpiedrav wrote: post #22

Would it be safe to say that CIA (and NSA and other parts of the intelligence community) is the actual "State within the State" (i.e., the so-called "Deep State")? "National security", almost at any cost, became the paramount prerogative of US intelligence agencies. However, they seem to be using a military criteria in a civil environment, which was supposed to be transparent enough for accountability.

> Would it be safe to say that CIA (and NSA and other parts of the intelligence community) is the actual "State within the State" (i.e., the so-called "Deep State")?

This shouldn't be done or said because it absolves the state of it's absolute willingness. When the CIA backed Pinochet, the state was absolutely interested in getting rid of Allende, and the same can be said of any other CIA-backed coup.

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