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Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

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Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#471

Post by tomschlick »

smashthepants wrote: post #454
tomschlick wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When, in the history of humanity, has income ever been at an acceptable level of equality? If you/the people who support such a policy can't define an explicit goal then I'd say that's pretty unachievable.

The goal is defined - equality. If it mattered to you it wouldn't be a complicated concept to grasp. And just as I said in my previous comment, this is the exact sentiment that prevents the goal of equality from being reached. Just because something has never been done that doesn't mean that it can't be done. And if you and everyone who doesn't support such a policy are unwilling to participate, then you're right, it…

There will always be rich, there will always be poor. That's simple economics. There has not been a society in human history that hasn't had those. Pretending that you can magically wish that away is crazy.

Our system is based on equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. If there are issues with the opportunity then we should work to fix those (like is already being done in inner cities cleaning up the drugs/pushing out gangs/preventing fatherless homes/etc). But pretending that you're going to fix those socioeconomic issues by giving preferential treatment to people based on race is just pulling other problems into the mix and is blatantly racist.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#472

Post by travisoneill1 »

tathougies wrote: post #329
travisoneill1 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real money is paid directly to students through federal student loans and then to the university.

In order to qualify for the scholarship, a student must be attending a university recognized by the federal government. You can't get a government loan or aide to attend tathougies's super cool pottery school -- for good reason. Some educational institutions are illegitimate. And that is just scholarships. Harvard is a graduate institution, which means the federal government also funds research projects at the gradua…

And I would argue that Harvard is also illegitimate as it practices racial discrimination. Guess we'll see if the supreme court agrees.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#473

Post by ceejayoz »

thowthisaway wrote: post #292

So we use tell the kids to study hard, get good grade and test well in the SAT/ACT. What exactly do we tell them now? How exactly do you tell a kid to be "awesome"?

There are 5,300 colleges and universities in the US alone.

Maybe you tell them "Harvard's not the only option"?

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#474

Post by dnhz »

dhairya wrote: post #427

So a couple of disclaimers. I used to work at Harvard as an institutional research analyst (this was about 3ish years ago). My group worked closely with collecting and analyzing institutional data to advise senior leaders in strategic decision making and policy. Our group provided some of due diligence analysis when the lawsuit first surfaced. I personally didn't work directly with the lawsuit, but I was around those…

> After meeting a few of the admissions officiers, I have a lot of empathy and respect for them. They were all kind, considerate and very patient folks.

I'd imagine that the admissions officers, many of them alumni of Harvard or other elite schools, are bright and thoughtful. But I always wondered how they deal with donor admits. "Mmmm, I'm doubtful about this Jared Kushner fellow, but the Development Office has his application marked as a must-admit. Oh well?"

> The difference between say a 1400 (95%) student and 1600 (99.9826%)is small and honestly (my view) meaningless.

If you mean the difference is meaningless (or at least small) when SAT score is figured into the holistic appraisal of the applicant, then I might agree. But I think there's a substantial difference in SAT-taking skill between a 1600 and a 1400. A 1600 means nearly 100% correct answers throughout the test. Someone scoring 1600 knew all the necessary vocabulary, understood the reading passages, and could handle all the math. Someone with a 1400 still could deserve admission, but for excellence in other areas.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#475

Post by rtkwe »

tomschlick wrote: post #201
throwaway_law wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Every time the SCOTUS hears one of these cases they acknowledge that, but the justification is that these classes are/have been historically discriminated against and constitutional admissions which take race into consideration are a temporary measure to right these historical wrongs by leveling the playing field. So the e…

> but the justification is that these classes are/have been historically discriminated against and constitutional admissions which take race into consideration are a temporary measure to right these historical wrongs by leveling the playing field. So under that thought process... when does the temporary measure end? Is there a specific goal? Or is it something unachievable like "when income inequality is fixed".

For starters I'd say when the racial wealth gap has closed and when racial outcomes in education even out. So many of the factors that feed back into keeping those gaps alive can be traced directly back to racist policies like red lining that only ended less than a human life time ago.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#476

Post by goodluckchuck »

hourislate wrote: post #450
throwawaysea wrote: post #12

This ruling is a travesty and I hope the Supreme Court overturns it when this is appealed. It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Take a look at the distribution of students by race in the University of California system, where they're not permitted to discriminate in this manner, thanks to Prop 209 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_California_Proposition_20..…

The real travesty after this is overturned is that that judge will still be sitting and practicing law. If a higher court overturns your decision, then there should be consequences.

As an appellate lawyer, I can attest that this is a terrible idea. It is far easier to for a judge to avoid being overturned than it’s is to get the case right, and consequently a low reversal rate is a fairly strong indicator that the judge isn’t, well... I’ll hold my tongue. The more they try to get the law right, the more they risk being overturned. However, as long as there is a factual question, they can rule on those grounds and force it to a “competent evidence” review that is often impossible to overturn.

One of the things I most respect is when a judge rules against me but has the integrity to write an orde that I can actually challenge on appeal. That - being willing to be overturned - is the best sign of a great judge.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#477

Post by fortran77 »

azernik wrote: post #412
dannypgh wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ultimately a response to the fact that Jews were treated as the same people by policies designed to exclude them. There were no such policies for various Christian groups. Practically for much of this history in this part of the world, "Jewish" has been used interchangeably with Ashkenazi. Jewish is not an ethnicity, but Ashkenazi is, and most of the Jewish people at a place like Harvard (or applied-but-denied)…

> Jewish is not an ethnicity, but Ashkenazi is This is, to put it mildly, an opinion rather than an established fact. Ethnicity is a social construct, and many Jewish societies do construct an ethnicity that crosses the intra-Jewish Ashkenazi/Sephardi/Persian/etc. lines. The biggest example of this is of course Israel, but you also see this in other mixed-background Jewish communities like e.g. Los Angeles or France,…

When I'm in the United States, about half the time, I pray with a Chabad Minyan. About half the people there are not Ashkenazi, despite Chabad's Ashkenazi origins. We have Persians, Yeminites, Ethiopians, Syrians, etc, and people whose families have lived in greater Israel area for generations.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#478

Post by [deleted] »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #112
habosa wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Jewish person I feel weird seeing "whites" being broken into Jewish and non-Jewish. What about other religions? Why include religion at all? In particular with respect to Harvard and Boston I'd think Catholicism might deserve a mention if we're going to bring religion into this. In the end I think religious diversity is important but it doesn't belong in the same conversation. You can choose your religion and al…

Aren't Jews a race and a religion? Plenty of non religious Jews out there.

[deleted]

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#479

Post by BubRoss »

throwaway_law wrote: post #170
throwawaysea wrote: post #12

This ruling is a travesty and I hope the Supreme Court overturns it when this is appealed. It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Take a look at the distribution of students by race in the University of California system, where they're not permitted to discriminate in this manner, thanks to Prop 209 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_California_Proposition_20..…

> It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Every time the SCOTUS hears one of these cases they acknowledge that, but the justification is that these classes are/have been historically discriminated against and constitutional admissions which take race into consideration are a temporary measure to right these historical wrongs by leveling the playing field. So the e…

How much racism is necessary to get to the ideal of not selecting people based on race?

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#480

Post by bdowling »

zarro wrote: post #253

I don't get why a private University can't decide who it wants or doesn't want to attend its school regardless of the metrics it chooses. For instance, I don't think that matching a Universities demographics to the "national" or "global" demographics is likely to produce highest caliber candidates. What if Jewish and Asian candidates consistently outperform other candidates, why shouldn't a private school be allowed…

A private university that accepts federal funds is subject to Title VI of the Civil Rights Act.[0] Title VI seems to require the university to adhere to the same non-discrimination standards as a state university. That is why 5th and 14th Amendments, which usually apply only to state actions, are applicable here. That is also why the Supreme Court cases involving discrimination by state universities are relevant.

[0] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/regulatory/statutes/title... See also SFFA's complaint: https://studentsforfairadmissions.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

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