Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8519764
...and with 158 comments.
We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
11–20 of 135 posts
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#12How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.
Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…
This is terrible advice. When you quit you no longer have a stake in the game. Say NOTHING beyond platitudes.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#13Interestingly those who tend to be more realistic in their self expectations are more prone to depression. False confidence may be the route to happiness or at least optimism.
That sort of observation is really tough to untangle from potential confounding variables though. Seems to me that the causation could go in the other direction just as easily - maybe people who generally have an optimistic outlook on things are more likely to overlook their own flaws and rate their abilities more highly, and vice-versa for depressive types?
This is a known phenomenon among psychologists. People who are more realistic tend to be more likely to be clinically depressed.
Below is a link to a really really brief podcast that talks about the phenomenon. It's very interesting.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/segments/91618...
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…
This is terrible advice. When you quit you no longer have a stake in the game. Say NOTHING beyond platitudes.
Quitting would be more about not wanting to work with idiots than the parting shots.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#15How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.
I don't think I can really help, but for what it's worth -- you're definitely not alone.
You may not have this option... but in my org, we can submit feedback to a co-worker's manager at any time during the year. I have, on occasion, submitted negative feedback. I really _really_ dislike doing that. I feel dirty every time. But I view it as a responsibility. I work for a company that designs & manufactures devices that can mean life or death; every time I submit negative feedback I tell myself that it's for the well being of the end-user. When I submit negative feedback, I avoid being vague; I give precise, specific, and well documented examples and try to be as objective as possible. When other co-workers confide in me that they are frustrated with someone else, I give them the same advice: I encourage them not to tell me too much - let's be professional. But, because I respect them as a professional as well, I trust that their feelings are valid and not unfounded. I then tell them to make sure the appropriate people (managers) know - and point them to the feedback link. My hope is that if a manager gets enough negative feedback on a report (and it's all consistent), the problem will sort itself out during the next round of layoffs. Edit: For each piece of negative feedback that I submit, I try to counter act that with positive feedback about somebody else. I'd like to think it acts a little bit like up/down voting.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#16Interestingly those who tend to be more realistic in their self expectations are more prone to depression. False confidence may be the route to happiness or at least optimism.
That sort of observation is really tough to untangle from potential confounding variables though. Seems to me that the causation could go in the other direction just as easily - maybe people who generally have an optimistic outlook on things are more likely to overlook their own flaws and rate their abilities more highly, and vice-versa for depressive types?
Exactly.
And there are healthy and unhealthy types of “false confidence.”
There’s the confidence to take on and commit to (reasonable) challenges with the self-belief you’ll be able to conquer them, even if you have no relevant experience. Then there’s the odious, narcissistic type which functions purely on its own desires, rather than reality.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#17How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.
There's a parable... If you meet an a__hole in the morning, you met an a__hole. If you meet a__holes throughout the day, you are the a__hole. Moral of the story, if it's just one person, let them be. You don't have to win.
This is such a dreadful idea to spread.
Many of humanity's most valuable individuals have died alone, become pariahs or were persecuted by their peer groups. This obviously also happens to entire groups of people, not just individuals.
This happens all the time, even in ordinary places where it is clearly wrong. I can even remember back in primary school a couple instances of even teachers bullying unfortunate students.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…
This is terrible advice. When you quit you no longer have a stake in the game. Say NOTHING beyond platitudes.
The first piece is fine advice. But after quitting, definitely agree you have nothing to gain from saying anything.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
That sort of observation is really tough to untangle from potential confounding variables though. Seems to me that the causation could go in the other direction just as easily - maybe people who generally have an optimistic outlook on things are more likely to overlook their own flaws and rate their abilities more highly, and vice-versa for depressive types?
Exactly. And there are healthy and unhealthy types of “false confidence.” There’s the confidence to take on and commit to (reasonable) challenges with the self-belief you’ll be able to conquer them, even if you have no relevant experience. Then there’s the odious, narcissistic type which functions purely on its own desires, rather than reality.
You're talking about important, related ideas. Confidence is just the expectation of positive outcomes. "Self-belief" or more commonly self-esteem is just about one's own valuation of themselves. Both are related, and both positively correlated to happiness. Finally, "narcissistic confidence" is just arrogance. Also related, and you're right, it is a type of confidence.
Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)
#20Hey, I built a 40 year career on 'fake it until you have to leave or learn how to make it' -So don't knock this. And, all you young whippersnappers remember that its only old fools like me messing up in the code which gives you meaningful jobs fixing bugs in the future.