Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the African American community's limited access to quality K-12 education Is that a claim that their schools are worse at educating students than schools in Africa?
Yes. Africa is a huge continent of 54 countries with a population of 1.2 billion people, so it makes perfect sense that such a huge geographic area like that would have many excellent schools compared to the areas of concentrated and persistent poverty in the US. The two areas aren't remotely comparable, unless you were thinking of something else?
Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
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Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#422This ruling was expected. The judge had been stalling on making a ruling to make it take time to work its way through the appeals courts and get to the Supreme Court where the policy might actually get ruled unconstitutional.
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#423It's like we have these two irreconcilable ideas: - Diversity is good - Discrimination is bad When 50% of the world's population is from China/India, how do you both promote diversity and not discriminate?
What I'm seeing happen is that unis (and other affected institutions) are trying to get rid of diversity of opinion in favor of diversity of skin color/ethnicity, and... I find that reasoning nothing but racist.
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#424As a person living in Africa, this is probably because Africans are willing to work much much harder than American blacks. Also the culture is less toxic.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21130576 and marked it off-topic.
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#425Yeah. Reading the opinion, it looks like SFFA only could make an argument via statistics and it failed to establish how those statistics related to reality. About 20-30 pages of the opinion are about comparing and contrasting Card and Acidiacono and honestly...it seems to me that both models are just inconclusive. Neither ends up taking into account what goes through the mind of an admissions officer and leaves out (…
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#426This ruling is a travesty and I hope the Supreme Court overturns it when this is appealed. It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Take a look at the distribution of students by race in the University of California system, where they're not permitted to discriminate in this manner, thanks to Prop 209 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_California_Proposition_20..…
Shut the fuck up you stupid bitch.
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#427I just wanted to offer some observations from my time there.
1. Admissions at Harvard is actually more competitive than most folks realize. There was a running joke that Harvard was moving towards a 0% acceptance rate. With the common app, Harvard has seen an increase in applications every year but the amount of seats available is fixed (~2,000). This year it was about 43,000 applications. That number of available seats is not quite that. The Dean of College has a reserved set of seats that he use at his discretion. There's a set of reserved seats for athletic scholarships. So the actual number smaller of available seats is smaller.
2. Each application is looked at least twice. The entire admissions department locks itself away for about 2 weeks and reviews all the applications. Each officier is responsible for a geographic area and each application is reviewed by 2-3 different officers and scored using an internal rubric. The rubric counts many factors (some of which is discussed in the lawsuit). After meeting a few of the admissions officiers, I have a lot of empathy and respect for them. They were all kind, considerate and very patient folks.
3. I can't speak too much what goes into the admission selection (confidentiality) but there are many factors that play into it outside of just grades and scores. It's worth noting that exceptional candidates are easier to identify (Olympic athletes, students doing groundbreaking research, students with amazing life stories), but they make up small portion of the applicants. Most of the applicants are highly qualified (high test scores, gpa, extra-curriculars) and if there wasn't a limited number of seats, would have been admitted.
4. The troubling narrative that surrounds around race-conscious admissions policies is the implication that under-represented minorities would not meet admissions standards. This is simply not true. Nearly all the students considered for admissions (under represented minority or otherwise) were in in atleast the 98% if not higher. They also had high GPAs and other factors. All the students were very qualified and accomplished. I often wondered if you had a lottery system, would that be better?
5. The variation in SAT score at the upper end corresponds to very tiny percentile differences. The difference between say a 1400 (95%) student and 1600 (99.9826%)is small and honestly (my view) meaningless.
6. One of the interesting things I had to do was review the original case literature on affirmative action. A theme that folks don't talk about is the diversity is not just race/ethnicy that was actually considered in the case law. Geographic diversity and social location do play into Harvard assemement. And the underlying literature is fascinating. Cognitive development literature shows college-age young adults are still developing their world views and college is space where they will run into uncomfortable situations. When faced with the choice of challenging their views or retreating to saftey of thier lived experiences, diversity places a critical role. But not in the way might think. Having others who different from you (not just race, but geography, lived experiences and other factors) plays a significant role. So say you have a student that goes to a local college with the same geographic makeup and lived experiences as their highschool but is otherwise racially diverse, that student is less likely to exposed to experiences that challenge thier world views and help them develop.
7. Harvard and really all other elite college's admissions policies are based on scaricity and it seems outdated. I know the common argument is that scarcity is what drives prestige but Harvard Business School literally allows outsiders to buy their into its network. HBS has like 3 day executive education programs that allow you to say you're an HBS grad and have access to their alumni network for the small cost of 80k (yeah 80k for 3 days!).
Now Harvard's campus is pretty tiny and there is limited space, so that makes sense from the on-campus perspective. But it also has the infrastructure to allow students to attend remotely through its DCE program and Harvard X courses. The stigma of continuing education aside (which is complicated and often unfair), the university should open its traditional programs up. There is precedent for this in the UK at top universities like Oxford, Cambridge, and ICL all of which offer thier main degrees to remote students (of course at price). And there's many problems with this suggestion (who gets access to on-campus vs remote, pricing, fairness, etc) but it's something Harvard and others like it should consider.
Sorry ended up being so long. Hopefully it provides some other views to consider as you think about college admissions.
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#428Earlier quoted context omitted.
Harvard and UC are trying to do different things. Harvard is trying to admit the future leaders of the world, so it can point to them and say “They are Harvard men.” UC is trying to give an academically rigorous education to the most academically qualified students.
So, asians are less likely to be leaders because of their race? African-Americans are more likely to be leaders because of their race?
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#429Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course there are — they are the “Michael Jordans” of the world... not only Michael Jordan himself, but all of the top accomplished people in the world... presidents, Nobel Prize winners, CEOs, famous authors... Harvard is prestigious because they admit people who later do those things. The content of the curriculum is largely the same as other colleges. Harvard is looking for people who have the highest probabilit…
You can't really assess someone's capability of becoming a president/CEO/famous author based on their achievements before age 18. It's also really hard to determine whether people achieved those things because they went to Harvard. For example, getting access to the Harvard network massively increases your chances of getting a business funded, being successful in politics, etc. Finally - Harvard's prestige in the sci…
These statements are almost completely incompatible. If there is no way to tell who is likely to be successful beforehand, and yet those who attend Harvard are more successful as a group than those who do not, then it is fair to say that attending Harvard led to their success. Personally I'd say it's some of each: the admissions process does in fact manage to select for applications who are more likely to be successful, as a group, and there are also some unique benefits available to Harvard students and alumni (as you yourself pointed out) which tend to boost their chances even further.
> For example, getting access to the Harvard network massively increases your chances of getting a business funded, being successful in politics, etc.
That would be one of the means by which people achieve things because they went to Harvard. It's not just about the academics. Of course, not everyone would be capable of taking full advantage of that network even if it were made available to them.
Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process
#430This ruling is a travesty and I hope the Supreme Court overturns it when this is appealed. It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Take a look at the distribution of students by race in the University of California system, where they're not permitted to discriminate in this manner, thanks to Prop 209 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_California_Proposition_20..…
> It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Every time the SCOTUS hears one of these cases they acknowledge that, but the justification is that these classes are/have been historically discriminated against and constitutional admissions which take race into consideration are a temporary measure to right these historical wrongs by leveling the playing field. So the e…
But that's not what's at stake here. Chad is doing great, legacy admissions are alive and well. Meanwhile Cletus and Liu are being discriminated against on race despite their real history that flies in the face of your framing.
Why must they be thrown under the bus? Why not Chad?