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The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

crawshaw.io

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Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#21
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your on-line identity consists of one or more brands and associated brand-specific identifiers. For instance, to me right now, you're HN!JohnFen. HN, or news.ycombinator.com, is the brand. Right now I'm speaking to you also using HN brand, as HN!TeMPOraL. HN is the brand through which the communication happens. I can't use my Twitter!TeMPOraL_PL account to talk to you, because there's no transport between Twitter and…

I think I see what I was missing here -- he's talking about identity services , not actual identities. I see a large difference there. In any case, thank you for helping to clear that up. > If you think about it, you'll notice that there's no way you and me can ever talk with one another without a brand intermediary I think that this is a matter of worldview or perspective. I don't see it that way at all, but I under…

I think "brand" is used here because it's a bit more accurate than "company" or "institution". Consider an Instagram account and a Facebook account. Both are owned by the same company - though they weren't in the past - and yet they create their separate communication networks. What the author calls "a brand" can change its owner, and multiple distinct "brands" can be owned by the same organization. The example with Alice and Bob tells you that an individual can also establish such a "brand".

I don't know of a better term to use here.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#22
post #14

This article seems to present the state of the Internet as a kind of feudalism, where one must swear fealty to an established "brand", and carving out a life as a freeman is practically unattainable. I'd say the reality is that it's easy to join the Internet land-owning class (buy a domain; get a cert; run services), yet most people prefer to rent because they are not so inclined. Email is widely used, HTTPS is widel…

> Email is widely used

Setting up your own email server is notoriously difficult, and requires coordination with major brands. Importantly, people who use brands like GMail can't choose to whitelist you. There's no setting in GMail saying, "I trust everything coming from Bob's domain, don't bounce them." Emails get rejected on the protocol level.

Effectively, if your friend is using Gmail, then they're using a brand, and you won't be able to talk to them unless you also use a brand that Google respects.

> HTTPS is widely used

The DNS system is probably one of the things I'm least worried about online, but it doesn't make sense to describe it as anything except as a brand. Domains aren't permanent -- you have to continue leasing them. That makes sense for a brand because you don't want companies to take over an entire space, but it makes no sense for an identity, because you should be able to permanently own an identity. Additionally, DNS is optimized for brand recognition, not for identity verification. It makes a ton of security compromises (think ally vs a11y) that make identity verification harder, but brand recognition easier.

I would also disagree that phone numbers are good identity systems. Most people keep their phone number permanently, and it's trivial to tie a number to a real world identity. I would hesitate to call it pseudonymous. There's a real conflict between phone numbers being treated like a permanently owned identity and phone numbers being a thing you need to maintain and carry with you. In general, I try very, very hard not to allow any business to tie my identity to a number, because I think it's blatantly insecure.

I do think the first point you're getting at is correct, in a sense:

> I'd say the reality is that it's easy to join the Internet land-owning class (buy a domain; get a cert; run services), yet most people prefer to rent because they are not so inclined.

I agree. However, it's not that identity management online is good. What you're describing is that it's relatively easy to build a brand. It's relatively easy for me to set up a domain, grab my username on new services as they come up, and make sure that when someone searches me on Google I show up near the top. That's not identity, that's brand management.

The reality is that the current Internet is adapted to brands, but because it's not a massive problem for technical people to invest into making their own brand, we just kind of tolerate it. And non-technical people prefer to rent space on other people's brands instead of building their own. But in both cases, we haven't really built personal identities that are disassociated from advertising or word-of-mouth.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#23
post #14

This article seems to present the state of the Internet as a kind of feudalism, where one must swear fealty to an established "brand", and carving out a life as a freeman is practically unattainable. I'd say the reality is that it's easy to join the Internet land-owning class (buy a domain; get a cert; run services), yet most people prefer to rent because they are not so inclined. Email is widely used, HTTPS is widel…

HTTPS does require you to use a gatekeeper brand; even going through Let's Encrypt (which is a brand, per article's use of the term) means you're now involving an extra bunch of intermediary brands. After all, the whole point is to have someone else to vouch that you are who you say you are.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#24
post #12

I don't necessarily want to rely on brands to use the jargon of the article to facilitate informational exchange. As a user I certainly am interested to exclude the brand wherever I can, because it is a security flaw and allows for countless attack vectors. I know about the current ambitions of identity providers and I make use of them because I am lazy too and don't know enough about security to match their services…

Institution may have been a better word than Brand.

It's not. Consider e.g. Instagram and Facebook, both currently owned by the same company, yet being distinct Brands both in the regular meaning of the word, and in the meaning used by the article.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I see what I was missing here -- he's talking about identity services , not actual identities. I see a large difference there. In any case, thank you for helping to clear that up. > If you think about it, you'll notice that there's no way you and me can ever talk with one another without a brand intermediary I think that this is a matter of worldview or perspective. I don't see it that way at all, but I under…

I think "brand" is used here because it's a bit more accurate than "company" or "institution". Consider an Instagram account and a Facebook account. Both are owned by the same company - though they weren't in the past - and yet they create their separate communication networks. What the author calls "a brand" can change its owner, and multiple distinct "brands" can be owned by the same organization. The example with…

Well, in the sense that you've explained, the article is talking about identity and communications channels as if they are related, so perhaps "communications channel" would be the most accurate term?

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "brand" is used here because it's a bit more accurate than "company" or "institution". Consider an Instagram account and a Facebook account. Both are owned by the same company - though they weren't in the past - and yet they create their separate communication networks. What the author calls "a brand" can change its owner, and multiple distinct "brands" can be owned by the same organization. The example with…

Well, in the sense that you've explained, the article is talking about identity and communications channels as if they are related, so perhaps "communications channel" would be the most accurate term?

Not sure. Take the two e-mail addresses I still use; one is on GMail, the other under my domain. There are two "brands" (GMail and my domain), but one communication channel (e-mail).

(From my point of view, there are perhaps three "brands" - I own the domain, but the address under my domain is handled by Fastmail.)

Let me turn the question around: what about the author's use of the word "brand" seems to conflict with the usual use of that word? Especially when you include the extended meaning that gives rise to terms like "personal brand"?

The way the author uses that word intuitively clicks with me, but then again, I could be wrong about what the word "brand" means in general.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in the sense that you've explained, the article is talking about identity and communications channels as if they are related, so perhaps "communications channel" would be the most accurate term?

Not sure. Take the two e-mail addresses I still use; one is on GMail, the other under my domain. There are two "brands" (GMail and my domain), but one communication channel (e-mail). (From my point of view, there are perhaps three "brands" - I own the domain, but the address under my domain is handled by Fastmail.) Let me turn the question around: what about the author's use of the word "brand" seems to conflict with…

I dont see either company as good examples.

I have or can have a single authentication identity to instagram/facebook and youtube/gmail/google. I might have a separate profile/persona on instagram/facebook or youtube/gmail but the sign in is the same identity. Yes instagram does have its own segregated identity infrastructure, but its identity brand doesnt get reused anywhere but instagram.

This article was about identification and authentication, not necessarily what you do with the services once you are logged in.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#28
post #16

I think I get what the article is trying to say, but I have to admit that bringing in the concept of "brand" seriously derails it for me. My identity is not a "brand", the identifiers I use online are not a "brand", and I don't interact with "brands". I interact with people. What I'm not sure about is whether I'm just having a reaction to the use of the concept of "brand" that is obscuring a meaningful and accurate p…

Your on-line identity consists of one or more brands and associated brand-specific identifiers. For instance, to me right now, you're HN!JohnFen. HN, or news.ycombinator.com, is the brand. Right now I'm speaking to you also using HN brand, as HN!TeMPOraL. HN is the brand through which the communication happens. I can't use my Twitter!TeMPOraL_PL account to talk to you, because there's no transport between Twitter and…

> I can't use my Twitter!TeMPOraL_PL account to talk to you, because there's no transport between Twitter and HN. And even if it was, now two brands would be involved in communication.

You could almost do it if things like the Keybase identity graph were widely used. It seems like that concept would lift the identity out of the brands. As long as you linked back to an identity chain from your identity on each brand.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#29
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in the sense that you've explained, the article is talking about identity and communications channels as if they are related, so perhaps "communications channel" would be the most accurate term?

Not sure. Take the two e-mail addresses I still use; one is on GMail, the other under my domain. There are two "brands" (GMail and my domain), but one communication channel (e-mail). (From my point of view, there are perhaps three "brands" - I own the domain, but the address under my domain is handled by Fastmail.) Let me turn the question around: what about the author's use of the word "brand" seems to conflict with…

> Take the two e-mail addresses I still use; one is on GMail, the other under my domain. There are two "brands"

Hmm, I don't see email as an example of a "branded" communications at all. If we're exchanging emails, it doesn't matter to either of us who our email provider is. The identity is our email address, which is not necessarily linked to what email provider we're using.

> what about the author's use of the word "brand" seems to conflict with the usual use of that word? Especially when you include the extended meaning that gives rise to terms like "personal brand"?

A "brand" is a marketing thing -- it's the sum total of the iconography, art, marketing, and so forth of a product or company. It is distinct from the actual product or company.

I don't have a "personal brand" at all, because I don't market myself in a way that would require one.

This is clearly not what the author means, though, which is why I find its use to be confusing -- I don't really know exactly what he means by the term.

Re: The Asymmetry of Internet Identity

#30
post #14

This article seems to present the state of the Internet as a kind of feudalism, where one must swear fealty to an established "brand", and carving out a life as a freeman is practically unattainable. I'd say the reality is that it's easy to join the Internet land-owning class (buy a domain; get a cert; run services), yet most people prefer to rent because they are not so inclined. Email is widely used, HTTPS is widel…

> Email is widely used Setting up your own email server is notoriously difficult, and requires coordination with major brands. Importantly, people who use brands like GMail can't choose to whitelist you. There's no setting in GMail saying, "I trust everything coming from Bob's domain, don't bounce them." Emails get rejected on the protocol level. Effectively, if your friend is using Gmail, then they're using a brand,…

It really sounds like you're using the word "brand" to mean "service" here.
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