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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#681
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plain language of the text of the 2nd amendment has always been clear. Everything else you've posted is trying to work around the text as it's written and interpreted by SCOTUS.

This is the text: > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. How do you explain "Militia" and "State"? How does 2A not refer explicitly to State militias?

Read Heller. Scalia explained in detail.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#682
post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid that's not even close to an accurate comparison. Indeed I find it entirely disingenuous. There are plenty of armed officers in the UK for a start, I see them most days. Riot police in the UK are supported by authorized firearms officers in most cases. Secondly most world police forces have weapons, and the citizenry in those countries are aware of that. At the end of the day, a small group of officers were…

Police officers on diplomatic protection, airport security, etc are usually armed, and there may well be armed officers available in riot situations, but they are backup not front line. I said myself it’s not the same elsewhere, many other police services are armed but even so using live ammunition against protesters is unacceptable anywhere. I agree the protesters know what they are doing, but just as I cannot deny…

> Do you think that is acceptable?

I think it irrelevant. You don't hit a guy with a gun pointed at you with a pipe and expect not to be shot. The wider situation is not relevant unless the chap wanted to be shot.

> but they are backup not front line.

Also incorrect. I see armed patrols every day

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#683
post #98
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problems are unrelated to gun ownership. If you were to plot the percent of gun ownership vs the crime rate among various states or even countries, you wouldn't find much of a correlation.

It's actually quite clear that there is a strong correlation between gun ownership and gun violence: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-an... Overall crime, no, there is no correlation, but there is for guns used in crimes, which dramatically increases the rate of deaths and severity of those crimes.

The extremely obvious, plain reading of the gun ownership / gun murder rate data is that there's no relationship. Check this scatterplot[0].

The studies in your link are after "controlling for poverty and urbanization", "after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation", etc.

I'm not a statistician enough to argue the methodology of the papers, but I'll say given that the trend only emerges after lots of adjustments, it makes me a little skeptical. At least, it would be pretty easy to let some bias or motivated reasoning slip in.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Sta...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#684
post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the text of the second amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." From its advent until somewhere around the mid to late 20th century it was interpreted universally as an individual right. The founding fathers and others of the time wrote extensively on this and it was not controversial for centur…

> In brief form: he posits that if the law were constrained only to the militia, and not the masses of people that may comprise it, then it would be quite a pointless amendment as the very government it seeks to protect individuals from could undermine it by inaction or neglect in regards to the formation of that militia. It should be noted that the Bill of Rights was originally interpreted to only limit the actions…

Perhaps the militia, as a social institution, would correct the issues we see with gun ownership in the US today.

The militia is always in its construction open to everyone, whereas the gun community is seen as a kind of subculture today.

The militia brings people together in a context where the underlying story about arms is not one of power, violence or even self-defence but rather one of duty, personal discipline, safety and cooperation.

The militia provides a way for people to learn a lot about firearms and firearms safety before buying a gun, as opposed to the situation in the US we have today where often the requirements for an intro course include one's own gun.

As a social institution, militia would not necessarily have to be government funded.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#685
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents. The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do. The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself. This assumption did not work out for the Confederacy in the Civil War. What makes you think it would work today?

The Confederate generals surrendered to keep the country from endless guerilla warfare. This is why the Confederates weren't executed for treason, etc, because everyone wanted to end the fighting at that point.

Sherman burning everything had a lot to do with making guerrilla warfare undesirable in the south (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea). It isn't something that we would dare try in the Middle East, at least with the hearts and minds doctrine. (destroying your enemy is easy, doing so without destroying everyone else is another matter)

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#687

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to take all property rights and freedoms like that Do you know anything about China and Hong Kong? What exactly do you think China has done in Hong Kong? EDIT: Down-voters, can you answer the question? Or are you just going to try to bury it with down-votes?

I DO know something about China and Hong Kong, having lived/worked/studied in them, and having half of my family there. And of course, as in any of these things, nuance is the first thing that goes out the window.

First, although Hongkong has been peaceful in the last decades, it has had some pretty severe rioting before, in the 60s and at various other times. But what we see now is a drawn out result of the 1997 hand-over. There are many factors. One is that China (and the colluding business interests) have moved step by step in opposite direction of democracy. Another is more about psychology - Hongkong used to be a star in the region, but it's now in Chinas shadow and more and more dependent on the mainland, even "overrun" in certain ways. So there is a built up frustration in Hongkong around both of these things.

China has not yet brought down the hammer on Hongkong, and they have not removed property rights and the overall freedom. Sadly, these protests are more likely to bring the dictatorship closer. But all revolutions are like that. Almost inevitably they turn violent (on both sides). The government feel the need to push back harder to quell the fire. In any conflict, both sides lose. And yes, almost inevitably

Now, that's the nuance. Then you have the simple fact that China is not a democracy, it's an oppressive surveillance one-party state. All of the democratic world has a certain moral obligation to either attempt to transform or to oppose China. Unfortunately, most have gotten in too deep and have too much to lose on criticising China. Therefore the global response is weak, and large corporations tend to follow the money rather than the principle. This is very sad.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#688
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone who has guns, but everyone who resists. Even worst tyranny has some public support usually. And if people who tend to have guns are more inclined to support your flavor of tyranny (because you purpose-built it that way), you side step most of those problems.

> Even worst tyranny has some public support usually. Tyranny always has public support. The evil wizard lord of a kingdom scenario has never and will never occur in reality - someone despised by everyone cannot come into power... That doesn't mean the tyrant has the majority of public support, but I'd find it hard to believe any tyrant has less than 30% when coming to power.

Someone despised by everyone can come into power when they are born into it. King John of England is a common example, though I don't know how historically accurate.

That said, your point is important and something many people don't seem to understand: those foreign leaders we in the West like to describe as tyrants, dictators, despots, strongmen, etc, are generally at least popular at home, and often adored.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read up on the civil rights movement, specifically Robert F. Williams. You have a situation where blacks stood up to their local governments that refused to convict whites for lynching blacks, local governments that refused to protect blacks from white violence, where police actually sought to disarm blacks in the face of white lynch mobs with little to no federal oversight, and all the peaceful protests in the south…

And what if violence had broken out? How do you think that would play out? Some counter examples are the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) or possibly even the Kent State Shootings (although there it was the State causing violence). No matter where the violence comes from, the message tends to get lost from the reaction to the violence. Sure, even Gandhi talked about needing the capacity for violence for non-violence to w…

Violence did break out. When protesters weren't armed. And black and white civil rights supporters were beaten and lynched while local police watched. Lynchings were avoided when either Feds showed up with arms or local blacks organized with arms.

The difference between the civil rights movement and say, the ELF is that MLK jr, smartly pushed for nonviolence and all armed violence was encouraged only as a retaliatory measure.

I agree that the message can and most likely will get drowned out with escalation to violence, but if the courts fail you, if the state fails you, the only recourse you really have is a credible threat of violence. If that violence is in the form of disruption or rioting or if it's simply, non compliance backed by guns- without that threat, you will be ignored, or worse.

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