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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#671

Post by geggam »

moate wrote: post #654
geggam wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The whole incident involve those yahoos is a mess, but a really great example of a militia strong arming the feds (it sucks that the feds screwed the pooch in the trial of the 2016 standoff and let them get off because of procedural misconduct). As I watch our govt in action I think this is the norm and to be expected. I am shocked the judge actually let the Bundy's off TBH. I wonder if it wasn't just an appeasement…

From my understanding it was pretty basic "Prosecution didn't do their job, and they did they're job SO poorly I have to dismiss this because everyone is staring at me because this is such a high profile case" situation. High profile cases like that are high risk high reward for the prosecution. You can't let private militias start dictating how the country works, but you also can't fire up extremists and provide sym…

Dismissed with prejudice

Judge Navarro admonished the government for “flagrant prosecutorial misconduct” and withholding “potentially exculpatory” evidence, including FBI logs on surveillance and sniper activity, threat-assessment reports indicating that the Bundys were not dangerous, and internal reports about misconduct involving BLM agents.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#672

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bhupy wrote: post #174
Fezzik wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents. The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

The insurgencies would be easy to deal with if we didn't care much about collateral damage. Similar to how a well armed confederacy faired against the Union army under Grant and Sherman's "total war."

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#673

Post by moate »

filoleg wrote: post #360
moate wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello. I grew up surrounded by guns and on food stamps. My parents like cheap beer, low brow humor, my father mostly worked manual labor jobs, and they generally vote "anti-government". Some people call it white trash, others call it rednecks. The term is offensive if you want to be offended. That's fine if you're offended, you have the right to be. As someone who grew up around that life, I call them "hillbillies, H…

>people who own semi-auto Wait what. Did you mean, literally any rifle that isn’t some antiquated bolt-action one or something like a sniper rifle? Because iirc pretty much any even remotely non-vintage rifle/handgun is semi-auto, aside from a few novelty/specialty guns.

I mean if you just stop mid-sentence you can make people say all sorts of things they didn't actually say.

>> Because iirc pretty

Thanks for the compliment! Let's address what was said, and what I meant.

Here's the part of the post I was responding to specifically: >>It's also not cool to characterize people who have assault rifles or support the 2nd amendment as rednecks.

Now, most gun people will go out of their way to inform you that AR-15s and similar civilian weapons aren't "assault rifles", even though that's what most people are talking about in these kinds of discussions. You can't (technically) own a full-auto weapon in the US. Based on my general understanding of guns in the US, when most people see an AR-15, a "Modern Sporting Rifle" but I hate that term so I just described the gun, they think it's an "Assault Rifle" but that's not true.

I don't really know what you're point is here? The original (now flagged) post was pointing talking about redneck 2A-loving gun nuts. I was pointing out that 1- I don't like rednecks, 2- not everyone who owns a gun is a redneck, and 3- the Afghanistan War and a second US civil war would be very different conflicts.

ALSO, fwiw, there's plenty of modern bolt-action rifles being produced theses days because they're reliable AF, and if you're good at hunting you shouldn't need a clip (yea yea, "true Scotsman", whatever). Also, there are plenty of shotguns that are not semi-auto. There's all kinds of guns!

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#674

Post by jdsully »

schuke wrote: post #23
program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

I’m from the mainland and totally with HK’s cause. But I do think the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement. If tanks roll in, there’s no point using violence as they’ll be crushed. If they don’t, it seems to me there’s enough space for peaceful protests, which can be even more effectual in many ways. And the people of Hong Kong have shown an incredible amount of creativity in non-violen…

Tanks are quite vulnerable in urban combat. As the Russians learned at the start of the battle of Grozny: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1994–95)

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#675

Post by brightball »

josephdviviano wrote: post #238
bhupy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents. The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do. The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

But in the US there are as many guns in circulation as people. If you’re assuming even 20% of citizens hold those firearms you’re looking at an armed opposition that numbers over 60 million people.

It doesn’t matter how advanced your technology is, there’s a certain point where numbers win.

You’re also assuming that military personnel themselves wouldn’t defect and side with their fellow citizens in such a situation, which would also make a lot of the same technology available to the hypothetical resistance.

When you look at those numbers, it becomes clearer why pushes to disarm the population when there isn’t a problem present such a huge threat to the country.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#676

Post by dsego »

nicwolff wrote: post #482
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

> This is why we have the second amendment. It's not. The same "militia" that justifies the second amendment can be federalized by Congress per Article I to "suppress insurrections" (or since 1792 by the President).

There is an episode on the TV show Designated Survivor where the state guard refuses to federalize.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#677

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bdowling wrote: post #567
sjwright wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was being serious. I don’t have a problem with responsible gun ownership. Switzerland is a good model. The NRA loves to point at rates of Swiss gun ownership. If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws I think you’d be okay.

If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws, a citizen who passes a background check would be able to buy a newly-made full-automatic machine gun that is not allowed in the US outside of law enforcement or military. I’m not sure that is what you’re implying that you’d want.

> If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws, a citizen who passes a background check would be able to buy a newly-made full-automatic machine gun that is not allowed in the US outside of law enforcement or military.

But they wouldn't get access to the ammo needed to use those guns, which are stored in a central community location to combat an unwanted suicide problem (and aren't they semi-auto anyways?).

They also aren't bought, but part of ones' militia service. You know, that first clause of the USA's 2nd amendment that the pro gun lobby says to ignore.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#678

Post by brightball »

Ancalagon wrote: post #407
sjwright wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you could keep all your guns safely locked away until then, that would be great. –thanks, everyone else.

I know you were being funny, but I actually wholly agree with this statement. Every gun owner should have safes/locks for their guns.

IMO every high school should be teaching first aid, gun safety, etc.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#679

Post by cwkoss »

yonaguska wrote: post #668
cwkoss wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NRA advocated for gun control to disarm the Black Panthers. Gun control has historically been used to disarm minorities much more often than for public safety.

The NRA actually helped Robert F. Williams, from my parent comment, establish a gun club and donated rifles and ammunition. So while they helped with establishing the Mulford Act, they also supported the early civil rights movement. Not to defend them, but organizations aren't necessarily single minded in their actions.

Thanks, I didn't know that. Will have to do some further reading tonight :-D

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#680

Post by [deleted] »

kristiandupont wrote: post #25
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

If HK'ers had a similar right to carry guns, do you honestly believe that they would be any better off right now?

[deleted]
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