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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#581

Post by yellowapple »

throwaway77976 wrote: post #525
loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

> the US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. It took the US around 200 years to fully live up to those founding morals and principles. The PRC is a relatively young country. Only 70 years as of today. Give them a hundred more years and perhaps it’ll change drastically.

I think the point is that the PRC wasn't actually founded on those same morals, but rather on ones of "we know what's best for the proletariat and anyone who disagrees must cease to exist". With a handful of exceptions (most notably: McCarthyism), the US has always had a very different attitude when it comes to political dissent.

Case in point: the freedom to openly criticize or even outright mock/ridicule a politician is demonstrably far stronger in the US - and historically has always been - than it is or has ever been in the PRC.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#582

Post by heyoni »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #575
sbmthakur wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. But people in the US can remove legislatures and the top executive(the President). Do people in China have that option?

Can they, though? We've got the test case in front of our face right now. Want to place some bets on anybody elected being removed before 2020? How much you want to bet that in 2020, for the umpteenth time in a row, we get a choice between two billion-dollar-funded candidates who are absolutely not going to buck their sponsors, ever? Taste the freedom.

We had one with Nixon. He resigned, remember? Now just because we don’t get it again, does not mean there’s no basis for OP’s notion that we can remove legislators all the way up to the executive branch.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#583

Post by spacehunt »

UIZealot wrote: post #416
Legogris wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several reports of people whom the CCP views as antagonistic having gone missing when flying into or through China. Bookshop owners, political activists and writers, for example. The strong reaction against the extradition bill comes to a large part out of (reasonable) fear that it will be abused as a tool to get rid of dissidents and pro-independence elements.

I'm only aware of Gui Minhai, a book store owner. He had to appear on TV in China and give a confession of guilt, but was afterwards free to go home. He is not missing. And he is not serving time, the GGP was mistaken. (EDIT: I stand corrected, if reports of his continuing detention in mainland China are true. His is certainly a curious, unfortunately, and extreme case. It does not take away from the fact that Hong K…

> The extradition treaty has officially been withdrawn as a result of the protests.

No it still hasn't. The government claims they are going to withdraw it, but technically the bill is still in the Second Reading stage.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#584

Post by [deleted] »

sergiotapia wrote: post #206
program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator God bless the 2nd amendment dude. This is one of the greatest gifts the founding fathers gave the US.

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#585

Post by simonh »

easytiger wrote: post #356
simonh wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things to unpack here. One is, what it the police officer right there and then supposed to do? Police forces across the world have faced similarly violent protests, and even riots while managing not to shoot anybody. It's part of their job. Police in the UK in riot situations aren't even armed with firearms. Pretty much the only situations in which UK police ever get issued firearms is when facing simil…

I'm afraid that's not even close to an accurate comparison. Indeed I find it entirely disingenuous. There are plenty of armed officers in the UK for a start, I see them most days. Riot police in the UK are supported by authorized firearms officers in most cases. Secondly most world police forces have weapons, and the citizenry in those countries are aware of that. At the end of the day, a small group of officers were…

Police officers on diplomatic protection, airport security, etc are usually armed, and there may well be armed officers available in riot situations, but they are backup not front line.

I said myself it’s not the same elsewhere, many other police services are armed but even so using live ammunition against protesters is unacceptable anywhere.

I agree the protesters know what they are doing, but just as I cannot deny their role, equally can you really deny the role the HK police have played in deliberately provoking and escalating the violence? Do you think that is acceptable?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#586

Post by [deleted] »

yellowapple wrote: post #581
throwaway77976 wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. It took the US around 200 years to fully live up to those founding morals and principles. The PRC is a relatively young country. Only 70 years as of today. Give them a hundred more years and perhaps it’ll change drastically.

I think the point is that the PRC wasn't actually founded on those same morals, but rather on ones of "we know what's best for the proletariat and anyone who disagrees must cease to exist". With a handful of exceptions (most notably: McCarthyism), the US has always had a very different attitude when it comes to political dissent. Case in point: the freedom to openly criticize or even outright mock/ridicule a politici…

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#587

Post by chrisco255 »

undersuit wrote: post #545
chrisco255 wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If humanity is causing extinctions, it's due to habitat destruction and local pollution. Climate change (+0.38C from 1980-2010) is not the cause.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/06/first-mammal... Do you have a response to this?

We live in an ever-changing planet. The sea level has been rising since 20,000 years ago, during the last deep ice age. We're still technically in an ice age, we're just in a temporary warming period called an interglacial. The state of various species is always in flux.

CO2 is fertilizing plant life on the earth. And satellite data confirms this: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/carbon-dioxide-fer...

Since plant life is thriving, so too will overall animal life. Although extinction will continue to occur just as it always has throughout the history of the planet.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#588

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

sbmthakur wrote: post #538
orthecreedence wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. Excuse my french, but what the fuck are you talking about? How about imprisoning and torturing US citizens without due process in the name of a nebulous war that only gets worse the more we fight it? What about all the puppet governments we've set up so that our corporate overlords can make a quick buck at the expense of some country who's resources we…

> The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. But people in the US can remove legislatures and the top executive(the President). Do people in China have that option?

The people who fund the political parties control what happens. Elected officials do their bidding. The public front of "democracy" is just there to keep everyone else from realizing that.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#589

Post by cwkoss »

coryfklein wrote: post #422
daenz wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. Let me make sure I understand your basic premise: the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns? Aside from being completely contrary to the American spirit of defending yourself f…

> Where is the military going to fire those "computer guided missiles?" Blowing up a home or two harboring a "terrorist cell" during a meeting I'm sure will be deterrence enough for a lot of those gun owners. > Are they going to destroy their own infrastructure? The infrastructure is the exact kind of ground that can be held much more securely against pistols and rifles using the U.S.'s advanced weaponry. > Do you th…

> Blowing up a home or two harboring a "terrorist cell" during a meeting I'm sure will be deterrence enough for a lot of those gun owners.

Like cutting the head from a hydra, this would spawn dozens of new "terrorist cells" in response. Military is made from the citizenry, and without moral authority, command would lose power and become opposed by many of their own forces (in addition to the general populace)

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#590

Post by yourbandsucks »

heyoni wrote: post #582
yourbandsucks wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can they, though? We've got the test case in front of our face right now. Want to place some bets on anybody elected being removed before 2020? How much you want to bet that in 2020, for the umpteenth time in a row, we get a choice between two billion-dollar-funded candidates who are absolutely not going to buck their sponsors, ever? Taste the freedom.

We had one with Nixon. He resigned, remember? Now just because we don’t get it again, does not mean there’s no basis for OP’s notion that we can remove legislators all the way up to the executive branch.

Fish don't know they're in water. https://sivers.org/fish

The fact that we have the illusion of choice between candidates who will all do mostly the same things, and won't affect the bureaucracy that much anyways, doesn't make us meaningfully more free.

"But my candidate had a great take on the bathroom bill controversy!", as we continue bombing weddings in afghanistan, imprisoning more people than China (!!!), etc..

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