Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#571

Post by throwaway8879 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #463

bigpumpkin wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How should we intervene?

Not that I'm necessarily advocating this, but US intelligence has historically proven extremely adept at destabilizing regimes. I'd imagine that mostly look like sowing internal discord within the CCP. The party already has a lot of corruption, so most likely many senior officials could be blackmailed and manipulated. The long-term goal would be to weaken the resolve and coherence of the CCP to the point that a non-v…

My guess is that US intelligence has several "shadow" arms that have morphed into their own creatures and are no longer the same patriotic beast it was during the cold war. I'm doubtful whether destabilizing China is a real possibility, in the "CIA in Latin America" sense.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#572

Post by throwaway8879 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

josephdviviano wrote: post #546

daenz wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. Let me make sure I understand your basic premise: the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns? Aside from being completely contrary to the American spirit of defending yourself f…

Yes, I do think that a gap in weapons technology is meaningful. I love numbers so let's talk about those using the Iraq war as an example. Here's an estimate of the number of casualties in the Iraq war: https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ Roughly 200k civilians, 90k combatants. According to wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93... 5k western coalition forces died. Even if these numbers ar…

It may be wise to pick ones battles, but it certainly is braver to pick one knowing you will lose. Stupid, but brave.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#573

Post by bdowling » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

josephdviviano wrote: post #238

bhupy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents. The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do. The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

Who is the occupying army in this scenario? Is it the US Army, made up of citizen volunteers, being asked to oppress their fellow citizens? Or is it an invading army or an army of mercenaries, in which case what side is the US Army on?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#574

Post by Elect2 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

jhedwards wrote: post #518

danbolt wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s interesting to hear. Not trying to troll, but I’d love to hear about what you have found to be better about it.

I would say the biggest thing is the emphasis on public works. Wherever I went I was awed by the extent of things that were built just for the public. In the city where I lived there they built a new fancy bridge[0], and a massive park with an island and an art center[1], all for public use, and the city hosts massive public celebrations in these kinds of parks with extensive art installations, music performances etc…

Topic is about "ethics".

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#575

Post by yourbandsucks » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

sbmthakur wrote: post #538

orthecreedence wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget. Excuse my french, but what the fuck are you talking about? How about imprisoning and torturing US citizens without due process in the name of a nebulous war that only gets worse the more we fight it? What about all the puppet governments we've set up so that our corporate overlords can make a quick buck at the expense of some country who's resources we…

> The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. But people in the US can remove legislatures and the top executive(the President). Do people in China have that option?

Can they, though? We've got the test case in front of our face right now. Want to place some bets on anybody elected being removed before 2020?

How much you want to bet that in 2020, for the umpteenth time in a row, we get a choice between two billion-dollar-funded candidates who are absolutely not going to buck their sponsors, ever? Taste the freedom.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#576

Post by no_opinions » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

It may be helpful to differentiate Chinese people and society from its government.

I view Chinese people individually, and on the whole, as very humanistic. The real question is what would China look like if its system represented the sentiment of its people?

I think they like private property, inheritance not being taxed, and in general focusing on their own lives without interruption.

Like anywhere else, many Chinese people enjoy civil engagement.

If China broke up into multiple countries and had a union to reduce redundancy/inefficiencies in common areas, that'd be a huge improvement.

This also preserves Chinese culture/customs on a more granular basis.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#577

Post by jki275 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #350

ChrisLomont wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2A applies only to militias This is untrue, and the Supreme Court has ruled several times on it. The states, which mostly modeled their Constitutions on the Federal ones, have a significant majority of them giving the people explicit individual right to bear arms. Or read the Federalist Papers, or look at common law leading up to the constitution, or realize that the Bill of Rights was added at the states request to…

> This is untrue, and the Supreme Court has ruled several times on it. This is a pretty weak appeal to authority. My rejoinders are Dred Scott and Korematsu (or anything about the idiotic "right to contract"). The Court isn't always right. > or realize that the Bill of Rights was added at the states request to protect individual rights, not collective govt sanctioned rights Well, 9A protects individual rights not enu…

The plain language of the text of the 2nd amendment has always been clear. Everything else you've posted is trying to work around the text as it's written and interpreted by SCOTUS.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#578

Post by mieseratte » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

goblin89 wrote: post #570

program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

> warrants the officer acting in self-defense I question the appropriateness of using a firearm with conventional lethal ammunition. A rubber bullet in lower body would have had enough stopping power. What happened looks like a blatant violation of any reasonable protocol law enforcement would be supposed to behave in accordance with under the circumstances.

> A rubber bullet in lower body would have had enough stopping power.

No, it wouldn't. I've sustained worse injuries than a rubber bullet and remained fighting.

A bat to the head is a lethal assault. Using a firearm against such an assailant is completely justified.

This has nothing to do with pro / anti CCP feelings. As far as I'm concerned the CCP should be eliminated.

Your assertion is devoid of any reality.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#579

Post by Sandman » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

CapricornNoble wrote: post #507

Sandman wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns? Basically, yes. Do you honestly think people would have any chance against probably the most powerful army in the world? Sure, they could try fighting a guerilla warfare, they'd even inflict some casualties against the enemy but it's unlikely tha…

>>>Do you honestly think people would have any chance against probably the most powerful army in the world? You are placing waaaay too much faith in technology. Look at the Saudis: one of the worlds highest military budgets, and stockpiles of first-rate western hardware.....they are getting absolutely routed by Houthis, who run up desert mountains with just sandals, an AK, and a mouth full of stimulants. >>>Sure, the…

> I suspect you don't know actual American military personnel very well, especially officers and NCOs, and how seriously we take the Laws of Warfare, AND the Constitution.

You're right, I don't. But, if Americans don't need to fear that they'll have to fight the US Army, why have the 2nd amendment at all? Who would they need to protect themselves against?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#580

Post by cwkoss » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I think it is unfortunate that so many Americans don't know about the history of the Black Panthers. In US public school system, we are taught that the Civil Rights Act was won through peaceful marching - this is not the whole story.

Black Panthers carried guns to protect protests, and having guns created a situation where cops could not rush in and beat dissent into submission. There is a strong argument that without the second amendment, the Civil Rights Act would not have been passed, and we would still be living in an institutionally segregated society.

I don't own a gun and don't feel I need one because I'm a privileged urban white. Gun control has historically been used as a tool to disarm Black Americans: the NRA supported gun control in response to the Black Panthers! (https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-...)

Any discussion of gun control in America must account for the self-defense rights of Americans who do not have adequate protection from the police.