Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#421

Post by parliament32 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #401

parliament32 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually not a huge fan of the US rolling in and stomping out governments (and installing their own, of course), but this is one faux-dictatorship where it sorely needs to happen. Some actual democracy would be amazing for these people. With the recent "trade war" and whatnot the stage has been set pretty well for a US intervention.

You can't force democracy upon people that don't want it and aren't ready for it - it ends disastrously. The US tried to do that in the middle east and failed miserably. The only success story seems to be South Korea, but I would argue they wanted democracy and fought alongside the US for it.

>middle east

I'm not super knowledgeable on the topic, but although the new governments didn't really work out, didn't the mass murders and other atrocities stop with the removal of the old dictator? Those countries may not be "stable" (yet), but is the situation really worse that it was?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#422

Post by coryfklein » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #338

josephdviviano wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is that the dictator would still win. The rebellious citizenry would live a life of absolute misery, just as those in the middle east do. The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. If there was ever a true US dictator, the 2nd amendment would mostly be used by the oppressed to rob, attack, and oppress one another.

>The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. Let me make sure I understand your basic premise: the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns? Aside from being completely contrary to the American spirit of defending yourself f…

> Where is the military going to fire those "computer guided missiles?"

Blowing up a home or two harboring a "terrorist cell" during a meeting I'm sure will be deterrence enough for a lot of those gun owners.

> Are they going to destroy their own infrastructure?

The infrastructure is the exact kind of ground that can be held much more securely against pistols and rifles using the U.S.'s advanced weaponry.

> Do you think the real men and women of the military would follow orders to destroy its own hometowns and families?

See the Arab Spring for reference on this one

> How long before regional coups?

I'm sure a civilian populace will experience war fatigue waaay before a trained, well paid, well fed military.

You're coming up with a hypothetical scenario where it's the entire US government against the entire populace. In the real world it doesn't happen that way - the populace is divided between the rebels and the government supporters.

Besides, look at today's political climate: most of the gun owners are the one's backing our most authoritarian leader! If, somehow, we were to slide into dictatorship you can be sure the leader would make whatever promises necessary to get the gun toters on his/her side.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#423

Post by sjwright » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

Ancalagon wrote: post #407

sjwright wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you could keep all your guns safely locked away until then, that would be great. –thanks, everyone else.

I know you were being funny, but I actually wholly agree with this statement. Every gun owner should have safes/locks for their guns.

I was being serious. I don’t have a problem with responsible gun ownership.

Switzerland is a good model. The NRA loves to point at rates of Swiss gun ownership. If the USA implemented all of Switzerland’s gun laws I think you’d be okay.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#424

Post by baybal2 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

bhy wrote: post #331

baybal2 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HK is just across the river from me, and I lived enough on both sides to know how the social architecture of both countries works The best proof of what I said is that all convenience stores and seven elevens are fully staffed, and running. Janitors, taxi drivers continue to work like nothing happened. HK Poly is more or less preserving minimal functioning, but HK University is effectively defunct now. All kinds of b…

What I heard is that they only protest on weekends? Are they doing it everyday now? > All of well of Hongkoners I know myself either: 1.) ran away to Mainland, 2.) ran away to Vancouver, 3.) are on the streets right now So, among them, what kind runs away, and what kind goes to the street?

The first question. No way to attest that for me, do your guess from other news.

The super rich of HK are surely out, they do so every time when there is trouble. Hongkongers who bought foreign property or passports in past years are certainly moved out by now too.

So, that leaves your typical petit bourgeois behind. Clerks, government workers, part of white collar workforce

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#425

Post by MrBuddyCasino » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

JackRabbitSlim wrote: post #405

Fezzik wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

Yes. A) Infrastructure. a huge portion of the US military might is not deployed in the US. B) Bombings and collateral damage. The military may not give a fuck about the infrastructure of another country but bombing US cities is damaging their own infrastructure. Litterally cutting of their nose to spite their face. C) Getting soldiers to shoot at other humans is hard. Getting them to shoot at other Americans is even…

Agree on all points. To be fair though, Vietnam was a political defeat, not a military one. They killed 10 vietnamese for every american soldier.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#426

Post by PeterisP » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #227

bhy wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong is defended by the PLA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Hon...

D'oh, for some reason I thought it was more of an analog like Taiwan. So basically, they could say "No", but really there's nothing they can do

The Hong Kong government wouldn't say "No" because they're not elected by the mass population of Hong Kong but appointed in a manner controlled by China (through https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Committee).

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#427

Post by jmknoll » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #406

baddox wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What policies does China have which are expansionist?

Wanting to take over Taiwan, and trying to take over the South China Sea by building artificial islands and using them as military bases, for starters.

To add to that:

Wars of aggression against two neighboring countries (Vietnam and India) in the past 50 years, active territorial disputes with basically every other significant country nearby. The creation of client states like which are then used to undermine stability (North Korea), or to undermine international organizations (Cambodia and ASEAN).

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#428

Post by jboggan » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #350

ChrisLomont wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2A applies only to militias This is untrue, and the Supreme Court has ruled several times on it. The states, which mostly modeled their Constitutions on the Federal ones, have a significant majority of them giving the people explicit individual right to bear arms. Or read the Federalist Papers, or look at common law leading up to the constitution, or realize that the Bill of Rights was added at the states request to…

> This is untrue, and the Supreme Court has ruled several times on it. This is a pretty weak appeal to authority. My rejoinders are Dred Scott and Korematsu (or anything about the idiotic "right to contract"). The Court isn't always right. > or realize that the Bill of Rights was added at the states request to protect individual rights, not collective govt sanctioned rights Well, 9A protects individual rights not enu…

>2A is absolutely not about individual rights. No Founder ever talked about it in this way. It's about militias.

Absolutely untrue.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

I don't need to refute it any further with additional quotes., it's a ridiculous statement.

Furthermore the mentioning of the recent Heller case in the Supreme Court is not an appeal to authority. Read the majority and minority opinions, they are comprehensive in every argument for and against the individual/collective interpretation of the right and arguments for your position are handled expertly by the majority.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Post by onemoresoop » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

UIZealot wrote: post #416

Legogris wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several reports of people whom the CCP views as antagonistic having gone missing when flying into or through China. Bookshop owners, political activists and writers, for example. The strong reaction against the extradition bill comes to a large part out of (reasonable) fear that it will be abused as a tool to get rid of dissidents and pro-independence elements.

I'm only aware of Gui Minhai, a book store owner. He had to appear on TV in China and give a confession of guilt, but was afterwards free to go home. He is not missing. And he is not serving time, the GGP was mistaken. (EDIT: I stand corrected, if reports of his continuing detention in mainland China are true. His is certainly a curious, unfortunately, and extreme case. It does not take away from the fact that Hong K…

After his release from prison, in October 2017, Gui Minhai has been under strict surveillance, living in a flat in Ningbo. His access to the internet and communication with the outside world has been limited, despite assurances from the Chinese authorities, on a number of occasions, that he was a ”free man and that the Swedish authorities could have any contact they wished with their fellow citizen”. Sweden’s Foreign Minister, Margot Wallström, made a statement saying that providing consular help to a Swedish citizen in need of medical care was ”perfectly in line with basic international rules, including the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations”.

[0]: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/21/enough-forced-confessi...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#430

Post by hnuser54 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #303

samsolomon wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually something I've thought a good bit about. As robots become more militaristic, an armed populace becomes less of a threat to their government. There's a good sci-fi story in there somewhere.

I disagree. I think robots will actually decentralize power. The key to all of this is software which, as we’ve seen, is effectively impossible to lock up. So I think what you’ll see is the proliferation of cheap, effective drones armed with explosives that are extremely difficult to defend against. We’re seeing this play out in the Middle East, most recently with a drone attack on Saudi Arabia’s oil production.

I definitely support civilian ownership of self-defense robots. But for them to be affordable (or maybe even possible), there needs to be substantial production of non-defense humanoid robots like robot maids to build up the supply chain. Even then humanoid robots have a lot more moving parts so they'll never be as cheap as today's civilian drones.