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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#221

Post by goatinaboat »

orf wrote: post #70
mc32 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it the opposite way, the tanks become a last resort. They have to use hard power rather than alternatives.

You’d think that an armed protest group would mean that the government reacts with _less_ force? Rather than simply deploying an appropriate amount of force to stop them? Because the simple fact is that the government will win in the game of “who has more guns and power”, just as it would in the USA, and there is no way a government would set a precedent that all you need to make it capitulate is wave a gun around. I…

the government will win in the game of “who has more guns and power”, just as it would in the USA

After Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq it literally boggles my mind that anyone still believes that.

In fact Afghanistan twice, the Mujaheddin defeated the Soviets the same way.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#222

Post by hnuser54 »

markstos wrote: post #189
Fezzik wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

The US Armed Forces is made up of people, many of which would not support a self-appointed dictator attacking their own people.

The rise of killer death robots like Boston Dynamics definitely changes this dynamic. A handful of people in charge of the robots could order them to murder whomever with little oversight or room for ethical qualms on the part of the "soldiers".

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#223

Post by Clubber »

ajross wrote: post #130
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s uncertain what the eventual outcome would be, but one thing is for sure, it would increase the threshold before the tanks rolled in.

Why wouldn't it decrease the threshold? Armed insurrection is a trivial justification for military force. Non-violent protest is not, which is why they've held back.

They won't for long I suspect. I suspect they'll send in troops and tanks anyway.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#224

Post by dsfyu404ed »

flatline wrote: post #212
Fezzik wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

People have this vision of a civil war, some all-out armed conflict with winner-take-all. Looking at any country with a history of armed rebels, you see a long-term political standoff that occasionally runs hot. Ruby Ridge and Waco are small scale examples in the US. On a larger scale these types of movements actually can accomplish quite a bit. I'm not condoning it by any means, I think it's completely nuts, but I d…

Waco and the public response to the government acting that way is why Bundy Ranch turned out the way it did. There was an overwhelming majority of people who didn't think the governments use of force at Waco was ok (pictures of burned to death kids will do that) and the government changed the way it operates to reflect that which resulted in a more "wait them out" approach. Incremental feedback loops like that are what prevent civil war in the long term.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#225

Post by derefr »

tialaramex wrote: post #159
derefr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries you’re thinking of as counterexamples don’t have an equivalent to Air Force One (= near-complete invulnerability for said dictator) or nuclear submarines with SLBMs (= near-complete invulnerability for said dictator’s hard power.) Nothing a militia does storming US land civil or military infrastructure would matter to a US dictator, any more than it would if a foreign military did so. The US military d…

"By Dawn's Early Light" is a movie with James Earl Jones as "Alice" the general aboard an EC-135 carrying out the "Looking Glass" mission (a 24/7 airborne command and control, now obsoleted) after a surprise attack. Jones' character decides to ram Air Force One to eliminate the hawkish Secretary of the Interior who has assumed the role of President - and thus resolve a deadlock so that the actual President (who has s…

Can an EC-135 escape the US’s own best air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles† being launched in a single mass-bombardment toward it with full penaids, by craft running the US’s best ECCM? Because, whatever they’re nominally flying, half the point of AF1 is aerial territory denial around the principal craft, so I’d assume they’re kitted out just for that task. Pretty hard to ram.

† Presumably, doctrine for a “Looking Glass” mission would have AF1 plan flight paths that bring them near still-executive-controlled surface missile batteries. Unsure if anything before a modern 5G craft could bring those batteries directly under its targeting control, though, rather than relying on the pilot making contact with living hands on the ground.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#226

Post by raisedbyninjas »

SkyBelow wrote: post #151
swarnie_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

You don't use it to go after the drone, you use it to go after soft targets. It is also a matter of scale and depends upon how the lines get drawn in the conflict. If the scale is just a couple of rednecks, then you aren't looking at an actual use case. Try a couple million rednecks instead.

You kinda need to go after the drone though. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/mass-surve...

With persistent surveillance, some will be reluctant to take up arms knowing the feds could capture you later at a time of their choosing.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#227

Post by exabrial »

bhy wrote: post #180
exabrial wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the Hong Kong government would allow the PLA to invade.

Hong Kong is defended by the PLA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Hon...

D'oh, for some reason I thought it was more of an analog like Taiwan.

So basically, they could say "No", but really there's nothing they can do

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#228

Post by jacobush »

geggam wrote: post #95
LandR wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think anytime you shoot a gun at one someone you are shooting to kill, shoot to maim feels like it would be practically impossible outside of movies. But I might be wrong, I've never shot a gun.

This concept you can shoot to maim is silly. Hitting a man is hard if you practice shooting. In a chaotic situation with adrenaline its even harder. Shooting to hit is all you can do.

The police in Sweden is trained to shoot to maim, but only in somewhat controlled situations, such as someone wielding a knife approaching officers from a distance. First warn verbally, then fire a warning shot, then fire at the legs.

When there is no margin left, fire to stop. (Which means in practice, often death.)

https://polisen.se/om-polisen/polisens-arbete/polisens-befog...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#229

Post by vageli »

empath75 wrote: post #74
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s uncertain what the eventual outcome would be, but one thing is for sure, it would increase the threshold before the tanks rolled in.

If they were armed this would have been over a long time ago. China would have gone in with tanks and the army, or even air strikes. Once you take up arms against the government that’s not a protest, that’s a civil war.

Air strikes in Hong Kong? So the government would destroy the very thing they are attempting to keep from rebellion?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#230

Post by Clubber »

close04 wrote: post #162
SkyBelow wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With or without the gun culture of the US?

Looking at still ongoing insurgencies where both sides are heavily armed you'd be hard pressed to find one where the dictator gave up even when the insurgents were backed by strong armies like the US. So yeah, the assumption is great but too simplistic. It's the same when people say "if we have guns we can stop mass shooters". Very few (if any) shootings were ever really prevented by a citizen and their gun even when…

Typically military people at a US base are not armed. MP's are but not regular military.
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