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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#191

Post by pimmen »

UIZealot wrote: post #93
pimmen wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protest was about the prospect of losing those rights, starting with being subject to mainland laws through extradition. The protest has then expanded to being against the CCP undermining ”one country, two systems” in general, an example of which would be Gui Minhai who’s serving time for a book he published in Hong Kong. So, I would say the analogy is still apt. The CCP control is being implemented which is what…

> The CCP control is being implemented which is what the protesters are against. Really ? How exactly is it being implemented? EDIT: Down-voters, can you answer the question? Or are you just going to try to bury it with down-votes?

The extradition treaty subjecting people to some mainland laws is a step in that direction.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#192

Post by unethical_ban »

baybal2 wrote: post #52
program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

> But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? But another question is, what people in Beijing supposed to do? Think of that. To many, it's very clear that men in black will not be content even if given suffrage. Then they will want places in legislature, own foreign policy, armed forces, and ultimately sovereignty. The popular sentiment that it's "poor HK kids" coming out at large out of desperat…

The very notion that people want free government and self-determination is a bad thing is why you're being downvoted on an American forum. There is not a lot of support for oppressive governments that commit genocide against religious minorities and put people in prison for political dissidence.

You may be playing devil's advocate for the "party" but it comes too close to sounding like you're defending them.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#193

Post by derefr »

snagglegaggle wrote: post #164
derefr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries you’re thinking of as counterexamples don’t have an equivalent to Air Force One (= near-complete invulnerability for said dictator) or nuclear submarines with SLBMs (= near-complete invulnerability for said dictator’s hard power.) Nothing a militia does storming US land civil or military infrastructure would matter to a US dictator, any more than it would if a foreign military did so. The US military d…

There have been inquests into what would happen in event of US civil war. Some projections see >40% of people immediately defecting from the government, many with high level clearances. At least in the case of the US the nation ceases to exist the moment it is in civil war. But that is kind of besides the point. A lot of people are arguing "they may have overwhelming force, so roll over and give them what they want."…

I’m assuming your inquests are about a US civil war between a controlling minority and a resisting majority?

The more interesting scenario to consider, IMHO, is a civil war between a controlling but “not the US” majority, and a resisting minority. For example: what would happen if there were a modern Red Scare, but one with a basis in reality—i.e., if somehow >50% of the US (including our political leaders) were subverted by China, became believers not just in Communism but in the CCP’s propaganda about Communism necessitating political unification and erasure of separate cultural identity, and so the belief that the US should volunteer to be annexed+absorbed by China?

If the majority of the US believed that... what should the rest of us do, at that point, to stop this from happening? Is the correct answer just “the US is a democratic nation, so if the majority of the population wants the US to stop being a democracy, that’s the ‘democratic choice’, and if you believe in the ‘power of democracy’, you should support it”?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#194

Post by baseballdork »

Fezzik wrote: post #168
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

Depends on the circumstances, probably. 100 million armed people is nothing to ignore. I would also assume that the enforcement would be via the police, not the military.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#195

Post by Bender »

Fezzik wrote: post #168
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

Yes and No. Would many small militias "win". Of course not. Would they cause nearly endless pain and chaos for decades? Most certainly. Some of them would also be members of the standing military and embedded in every level of government. Even the most malevolent narcissistic sociopath dictators don't want such a high maintenance and unstable situation.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#196

Post by jack_h »

swarnie_ wrote: post #22
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

> ... assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) ...

Assault rifles are select fire, that is capable of automatic fire. These are legal to own/transfer provided they have been previously registered with the ATF and made before 1986. They also tend to be quite expensive, tens of thousands of dollars, and the process to get one is rather lengthy, usually the better part of a year. This is primarily governed by the National Firearms Act of 1934, the Gun Control Act of 1968, and the Firearms Protection Act of 1986.

You may be confusing the phrase "assault rifle" with "assault weapon" which is often used in politics and media. Assault weapons are semi-automatic, but what is and is not an assault weapon tends to come down to jurisdiction and a combination of features (pistol grip, stock configuration, etc). Regardless, these are much more readily available and considerably cheaper.

Laws governing firearms in the US are actually quite complicated, and the terminology is also pretty verbose. Hopefully this helps.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#197

Post by onepointsixC »

Fezzik wrote: post #168
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

I supposed that's why the Taliban has been gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#198

Post by kaolti »

Fezzik wrote: post #168
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

You seem to be saying because it wouldn't work - why would we allow it? It's your right to defend yourself. Whether it works or not has nothing to do with it.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#199

Post by kgwxd »

Fezzik wrote: post #168
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

I would hope, since our military hasn't been conditioned from birth to believe they're serving a living god, that there would be heavy resistance from within the military itself if such a thing were attempted.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#200

Post by nicoburns »

luckylion wrote: post #19
nicoburns wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a UK citizen, I'd be pretty worried about this kind of thing happening in the US. The US police seem incredibly violent and often unprovoked.

> As a UK citizen, I'd be pretty worried about this kind of thing happening in the US. A police officer shooting somebody that is physically attacking them with a metal club in a violent riot that involves firebombs being thrown at police officers? I would neither be surprised nor worried if that happened in the US. Now, if they just opened fire at unarmed, peaceful protestors, I'd be worried (though not surprised th…

This wouldn't be expected behaviour in the UK. Our riot police carry shields, not guns.
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