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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#31

Post by tyingq »

easytiger wrote: post #11
marliechiller wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think i saw yesterday though that the Government there is infiltrating the protest groups with agent provocateurs so i dont know what to believe anymore

Entirely irrelevant as there is a video of the kid hitting a police officer with his gun drawn. This is entirely self inflicted. There is no strategic advantage to physically attacking a police officer in this context. It didn't further a cause in any conflict. If you go and hit someone with a gun pointed at you it is undeniable that the person acted in self defence. I hate to be defending these things, but the hypoc…

The video. Pretty clear he's swinging something that looks like a pipe or a wooden stick. Not the full context, and I imagine the police have things to answer for. But swinging a stick/pipe at an armed person isn't wise.

https://www.facebook.com/hkucampustv/videos/542398913195804/...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#32

Post by JumpCrisscross »

schuke wrote: post #23
program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

I’m from the mainland and totally with HK’s cause. But I do think the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement. If tanks roll in, there’s no point using violence as they’ll be crushed. If they don’t, it seems to me there’s enough space for peaceful protests, which can be even more effectual in many ways. And the people of Hong Kong have shown an incredible amount of creativity in non-violen…

> the violence is at least unnecessary if not detrimental to the movement

Judgement is complicated by documented evidence of undercover Hong Kong police dressing up as protesters and acting like belligerent idiots [1].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/world/hong-kong-police-pr...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#33

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

swarnie_ wrote: post #22
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

Asymmetric warfare[1] strategies are incredibly powerful and allow just a couple of rednecks with assault rifles, common chemicals, and vehicles fight successfully against the most powerful militaries in the world. Just look at the war in Afghanistan to see how difficult such warfare can be.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare?wprov=sfla1

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#34

Post by duckMuppet »

PostPost wrote: post #10
Clubber wrote: post #3

People don't think this sort of thing can happen in the US. Just look at what the federal, state and local government does to people it doesn't like now.

1. Everyone that's read the news in the last few years knows this young people can be shot by police in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice 2. This link is about what's happening in Hong Kong, not the US, and this sort of what-about-ism isn't informative or helpful.

I'm unsure of how far along HK is in the reintegration prices with China. That being said, there is a strong case to be made that the Chinese have every right to eliminate dissidents and protesters regardless of whether these unscrupulous individuals were assaulting law enforcement, as China generally forbids such activities and these individuals are putting thousands of lives at risk by perpetuating these events.

In the United States, they still have some semblance of a first amendment. Drawing these parallels, is why it is apropos.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#35

Post by [deleted] »

ericmay wrote: post #28
swarnie_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

The same thing that people in Afghanistan did? It's also not cool to characterize people who have assault rifles or support the 2nd amendment as rednecks. I'm certainly not one. It's actually kind of offensive to even use that term anyway if you ask me.

[deleted]

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#36

Post by swarnie_ »

ericmay wrote: post #28
swarnie_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

The same thing that people in Afghanistan did? It's also not cool to characterize people who have assault rifles or support the 2nd amendment as rednecks. I'm certainly not one. It's actually kind of offensive to even use that term anyway if you ask me.

No offence intended, just a stereotypical image i go to when thinking about the US's gun culture and all the problems it brings.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#37

Post by pimmen »

cdmckay wrote: post #20
PostPost wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Everyone that's read the news in the last few years knows this young people can be shot by police in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice 2. This link is about what's happening in Hong Kong, not the US, and this sort of what-about-ism isn't informative or helpful.

I think it is helpful because it’s asking for consistency. People are (rightfully) outraged when a protestor dies in Hong Kong, but protestors also die in the US. For example, the Kent State shootings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings The point is that if you’re demanding a certain standard from China or other countries, you should demand that in the US as well.

Kent State happened almost 50 years ago, and for the recent years people are outraged when protestors get shot to death by US police. There's even movements dedicated to fighting the fact that some groups of people get shot more often than others in the US.

I think this kind of what-about-ism by comparing to the US contributes absolutely nothing to the current discussion around police violence in Hong Kong. Unless it's used as an analogy to actually make sense of the situation ("the police are doing what they're doing at Kent State, can we learn something from that which would be applicable in this situation?") it only distracts from the topic at hand rather than actually discussing the morals and context of what's happening in Hong Kong, which is what this link is about.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#38

Post by mc32 »

kristiandupont wrote: post #25
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

If HK'ers had a similar right to carry guns, do you honestly believe that they would be any better off right now?

It’s uncertain what the eventual outcome would be, but one thing is for sure, it would increase the threshold before the tanks rolled in.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#39

Post by _iyig »

swarnie_ wrote: post #22
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

>What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

The common refrain goes “about as well as the Taliban,” who currently negotiating an American withdrawal after 18 years of serious U.S. military attention.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#40

Post by PostPost »

cdmckay wrote: post #20
PostPost wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Everyone that's read the news in the last few years knows this young people can be shot by police in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice 2. This link is about what's happening in Hong Kong, not the US, and this sort of what-about-ism isn't informative or helpful.

I think it is helpful because it’s asking for consistency. People are (rightfully) outraged when a protestor dies in Hong Kong, but protestors also die in the US. For example, the Kent State shootings: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings The point is that if you’re demanding a certain standard from China or other countries, you should demand that in the US as well.

And you assume that people are not outraged when protesters die in the US? Did you even read the very article you quoted?

"There was a significant national response to the shootings: hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools closed throughout the United States due to a student strike of 4 million students,[10] and the event further affected public opinion, at an already socially contentious time, over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War."

Yes, America has serious, serious problems with police violence. But pointing out injustice does not necessitate bringing up every other similar instance of injustice. It is not helpful, and distracts from the issue at hand.

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